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James

70 years ago since Mallard broke the speed record

70 years today  

I were just a little lad when it happened!
pauly

makes you feel proud to be british Thumbs up!  

but american train fans still say that their engines have gone faster
Les

Re: 70 years ago since Mallard broke the speed record

James wrote:
70 years today  

I were just a little lad when it happened!


How can that be??
Titan

Thing is Mallard could have gone faster - Gresley was expecting 130 mph plus, but because the track guys decided to put a speed restriction on the ascent of Stoke Bank, she was absolutely thrashed up the hill in order to try and get the speed back, and this resulted in the middle big end overheating so when Mallard got to 126 mph they had to throttle back to avoid serious damage, and the loco was removed from the train at Peterborough.  This meant that the loco that arrived with the train at Kings Cross where the press were waiting wasn't Mallard!

Incidentally Mallard had no special preparation for the test, they just picked the best available A4 on the day, and since Mallard was fairly new, but had done just enough miles to be nicely run in they used her.  It is also why the few pictures of her on the train show her to be a bit grubby - they did not even get to clean her before the run!
steamyman

hats off to James Watt who started it all.  
pauly

Titan wrote:
Thing is Mallard could have gone faster - Gresley was expecting 130 mph plus, but because the track guys decided to put a speed restriction on the ascent of Stoke Bank, she was absolutely thrashed up the hill in order to try and get the speed back, and this resulted in the middle big end overheating so when Mallard got to 126 mph they had to throttle back to avoid serious damage, and the loco was removed from the train at Peterborough.  This meant that the loco that arrived with the train at Kings Cross where the press were waiting wasn't Mallard!

Incidentally Mallard had no special preparation for the test, they just picked the best available A4 on the day, and since Mallard was fairly new, but had done just enough miles to be nicely run in they used her.  It is also why the few pictures of her on the train show her to be a bit grubby - they did not even get to clean her before the run!


you learn something new everyday
johnreid

Didnt the Mallard receive some damage from the run? I believe it took 9 days to make repairs after the record before it could be returned to service.
I am sure that others have broken the record, but over a shorter distance or without any official timing. So, for all practical purposes the Mallard holds the record, uncontested.
pauly

yes she did some damage to her valve gear I think
pauly

johnreid wrote:
Didnt the Mallard receive some damage from the run? I believe it took 9 days to make repairs after the record before it could be returned to service.
I am sure that others have broken the record, but over a shorter distance or without any official timing. So, for all practical purposes the Mallard holds the record, uncontested.


but she could have gone faster she was still gaining speed when she approached a curve in the track and they had to slow down and she was pulling a train behind her
Roly Williams

steamyman wrote:
hats off to James Watt who started it all.  


James Watt didn't start anything (except, perhaps, legal procedings against infringements of his patents).
Titan

johnreid wrote:
Didnt the Mallard receive some damage from the run? I believe it took 9 days to make repairs after the record before it could be returned to service.
I am sure that others have broken the record, but over a shorter distance or without any official timing. So, for all practical purposes the Mallard holds the record, uncontested.


She did do damage - the middle big end overheated. The valve gear was undamaged as far as I know, although it was a minor design flaw in the congugated valve gear (where the two outside valvegears drive the valve on the middle cylinder instead of having a third set of valvegear between the frames) that contributed to the problem, as the middle cylinder ends up taking more load than the outside two.

If as a result of the big end overheating she needed a replacement crank axle, then I would not be at all suprised if she was out of service for 9 days.

No issues with curved track in that area, today trains run at 125mph along that same track in normal service!
pauly

Titan wrote:
johnreid wrote:
Didnt the Mallard receive some damage from the run? I believe it took 9 days to make repairs after the record before it could be returned to service.
I am sure that others have broken the record, but over a shorter distance or without any official timing. So, for all practical purposes the Mallard holds the record, uncontested.


She did do damage - the middle big end overheated. The valve gear was undamaged as far as I know, although it was a minor design flaw in the congugated valve gear (where the two outside valvegears drive the valve on the middle cylinder instead of having a third set of valvegear between the frames) that contributed to the problem, as the middle cylinder ends up taking more load than the outside two.

If as a result of the big end overheating she needed a replacement crank axle, then I would not be at all suprised if she was out of service for 9 days.

No issues with curved track in that area, today trains run at 125mph along that same track in normal service!


she was still gaining speed as she reached the end of the long straight section

today it might be normal for trains to go that fast but back then this speed was unheard of and they werent going to take stupid risks were they so they slowed down when they reach the curve  

it wouldnt have looked to good if she had crashed on her record run would it
bessytractor

time for me to be uncharacteristically un-patriotic and don my debating hat.

theres been a lot of controvesy of late as to whether Mallard actually did achieve 126.  This because a German loco (the 05) initially held the speed record in 1936 of 124.5 mph.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Class_05

Now people have been pouring over the readouts of Mallard's dynamometer car, and are beginning to question them.  For example, a slight miscalibration in the equipment could give a readout of 126 when really your only doing 124.  A bump on a railjoint could also joggle the equipment just enough to do it.

If all this were true, then the 05 would be the official record holder.  Another thing that makes it slightly odd is the fact that Mallard never carried the plaques that records her achievement until she was in BR service, why didn't the LNER flaunt it to death? They had like a few newspaper headlines and it all quietly went away.

the plaque:  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mallard_Record_Plate.jpg

I mention all this due to a very interesting Steam Railway magazine article that deliberates all this.  It also mentioned that Gresley did not personally believe in the speed record.

I know its like 0.5mph difference, and that we will never know for certain, but it might not have been the actual record holder.

In my own opinion, Mallard was a smaller engine than the 05, so that makes her achievement much more.  But on the other hand, the 05 was running on level track, the A4 down a gradient.

I have tried to be as diplomatic as I can (and I am an LNER fan, so don't think I'm digging at them), but I'm just being realistic, and pointing out that at the time, there was no perfect way of knowing (steam age recording equipment wasn't as good as your computer and software at recording stuff).

Of course, if the locos were steamed again, we could have another go, and then we'd know for certain

I'd be well up for that!
steamyjim

steamyman wrote:
hats off to James Watt who started it all.  


Should read: Hats of to Thomas Newcomen who started it all
made-in-england

We where having a conversation on sunday and somone  said that if any other of the A4's suffer damage or anything they wil join mallard in York.. Not quite sure what was ment by damage tho
bessytractor

made-in-england wrote:
We where having a conversation on sunday and somone  said that if any other of the A4's suffer damage or anything they wil join mallard in York.. Not quite sure what was ment by damage tho


I don't really understand that, as the other A4s are privately owned, oh and two of them are in Canada and the USA.  If the damage was repairable then there'd be no point to stuffing them.  I mean look at 60532.  She had the absolute living bejeesus thrashed out of her, and she still ran after repairs, despite near total destruction of the motion.

Bring home Dominion of Canada and Dwight D Eisenhower  
MTA

I shall be celebrating this event this weekend on this train!:

http://www.steamdreams.com/content/view/169/1/

There will be a line up of 4 A4's at the NRM in York, which will be:

No. 60009 'Union of South Africa'
No. 60019 'Bittern'
No. 60007 'Sir Nigel Gresley'
No. 4468 'Mallard'

http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/reunion.asp

I'll be sure to get plenty of pics
made-in-england

Bittern!!!!!

Am going on the footplate when she gets back to midhants
alan2525

I was on the footplate of Mallard on my recent trip to NRM. In a way it's a shame that the Mallard is just a static exhibit though. At the NRM A4 reunion they will just be burning some oil soaked rags in the smokebox so it'll atleast have some signs of life!
Roly Williams

bessytractor wrote:

...
Of course, if the locos were steamed again, we could have another go, and then we'd know for certain

I'd be well up for that!


So would I, but I bet NRM wouldn't, nor Network Rail

As for the reliability of the record - speed measurement was not super accurate in those days but the error is just as likely to be in either direction. You just have to accept the figure recorded and accept that there is an uncertainty plus or minus. Unfortunately, in record books, the uncertainty is rarely quoted.

The same argument has been said about the 100mph by Truro. It could have been just under 100 but it could equally have been well over.

BTW - interesting statistic - Mallard's speed record is almost identical to that for a Stanley steam car! (and I'm not counting the 190mph unofficially recorded for the later run in which it crashed.)
pauly

bessytractor wrote:
made-in-england wrote:
We where having a conversation on sunday and somone  said that if any other of the A4's suffer damage or anything they wil join mallard in York.. Not quite sure what was ment by damage tho


I don't really understand that, as the other A4s are privately owned, oh and two of them are in Canada and the USA.  If the damage was repairable then there'd be no point to stuffing them.  I mean look at 60532.  She had the absolute living bejeesus thrashed out of her, and she still ran after repairs, despite near total destruction of the motion.

Bring home Dominion of Canada and Dwight D Eisenhower  



I like the idea of british steam locos being in other countrys they may not have been the most powerful locomotives but they were amazing pieces artwork and I think everyone should be given the chance to see them
johnreid

Not Steam, but here is a US train that went 183.6 mph in 1966, in Indiana no less!
http://tinyurl.com/5pc3wl
Worth looking at.
Atticman

MTA wrote:
I shall be celebrating this event this weekend on this train!:

http://www.steamdreams.com/content/view/169/1/

There will be a line up of 4 A4's at the NRM in York, which will be:

No. 60009 'Union of South Africa'
No. 60019 'Bittern'
No. 60007 'Sir Nigel Gresley'
No. 4468 'Mallard'

http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/reunion.asp

I'll be sure to get plenty of pics


By coincidence I too will be in Edinburgh this weekend, so I will at the very least be out taking pics, and looking out for Si at 8.30 am Sunday morning  
MTA

Atticman wrote:
MTA wrote:
I shall be celebrating this event this weekend on this train!:

http://www.steamdreams.com/content/view/169/1/

There will be a line up of 4 A4's at the NRM in York, which will be:

No. 60009 'Union of South Africa'
No. 60019 'Bittern'
No. 60007 'Sir Nigel Gresley'
No. 4468 'Mallard'

http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/reunion.asp

I'll be sure to get plenty of pics


By coincidence I too will be in Edinburgh this weekend, so I will at the very least be out taking pics, and looking out for Si at 8.30 am Sunday morning  


And I will be looking out for Tom at 8.30am on Sunday morning.

I get the distinct feeling we will look directly at each other and think 'Nah, it can't be him'
Roundy

Roly Williams wrote:
bessytractor wrote:

...
Of course, if the locos were steamed again, we could have another go, and then we'd know for certain

I'd be well up for that!


So would I, but I bet NRM wouldn't, nor Network Rail

As for the reliability of the record - speed measurement was not super accurate in those days but the error is just as likely to be in either direction. You just have to accept the figure recorded and accept that there is an uncertainty plus or minus. Unfortunately, in record books, the uncertainty is rarely quoted.



if they tried it again we could have it gps verrafied lol- no arguments then!
MTA

Roundy wrote:
Roly Williams wrote:
bessytractor wrote:

...
Of course, if the locos were steamed again, we could have another go, and then we'd know for certain

I'd be well up for that!


So would I, but I bet NRM wouldn't, nor Network Rail

As for the reliability of the record - speed measurement was not super accurate in those days but the error is just as likely to be in either direction. You just have to accept the figure recorded and accept that there is an uncertainty plus or minus. Unfortunately, in record books, the uncertainty is rarely quoted.



if they tried it again we could have it gps verrafied lol- no arguments then!


Unless we lost the signal or it recalibrates the route
pauly

theres no chance of that the NRM wants to keep the engine as original as possible which is just stupid    the fly scotsman for example I cam imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement

I say restore her to running condition an engine is nothing but a lump of metal unless it alive  if you know what I mean.
Roundy

MTA wrote:
Roundy wrote:
Roly Williams wrote:
bessytractor wrote:

...
Of course, if the locos were steamed again, we could have another go, and then we'd know for certain

I'd be well up for that!


So would I, but I bet NRM wouldn't, nor Network Rail

As for the reliability of the record - speed measurement was not super accurate in those days but the error is just as likely to be in either direction. You just have to accept the figure recorded and accept that there is an uncertainty plus or minus. Unfortunately, in record books, the uncertainty is rarely quoted.



if they tried it again we could have it gps verrafied lol- no arguments then!


Unless we lost the signal or it recalibrates the route



"perform a u  turn at the first avalable oppertunity"
bessytractor

pauly wrote:
theres no chance of that the NRM wants to keep the engine as original as possible which is just stupid    the fly scotsman for example I cam imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement

I say restore her to running condition an engine is nothing but a lump of metal unless it alive  if you know what I mean.


the "originality" argument is flawed before its even started.  All the early NRM engines are virtually rebuilt from their original form.
pauly

bessytractor wrote:
pauly wrote:
theres no chance of that the NRM wants to keep the engine as original as possible which is just stupid    the fly scotsman for example I cam imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement

I say restore her to running condition an engine is nothing but a lump of metal unless it alive  if you know what I mean.


the "originality" argument is flawed before its even started.  All the early NRM engines are virtually rebuilt from their original form.


I know mallard was in service for something like 45 years (probably more ) I dont think theirs much left  

if the NRM doesnt change its attitude were gonna end up with all of the most famous locos getting stuffed and turn into static displays
Roundy

pauly wrote:
bessytractor wrote:
pauly wrote:
theres no chance of that the NRM wants to keep the engine as original as possible which is just stupid    the fly scotsman for example I cam imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement

I say restore her to running condition an engine is nothing but a lump of metal unless it alive  if you know what I mean.


the "originality" argument is flawed before its even started.  All the early NRM engines are virtually rebuilt from their original form.


I know mallard was in service for something like 45 years (probably more ) I dont think theirs much left  

if the NRM doesnt change its attitude were gonna end up with all of the most famous locos getting stuffed and turn into static displays


i think money is what it all poors down to...
pauly

they havent even tried raising money and have openly said they never intend to restore mallard because they want to keep it original  

lets just pray greenarrow doesnt stay static forever
bessytractor

pauly wrote:
bessytractor wrote:
pauly wrote:
theres no chance of that the NRM wants to keep the engine as original as possible which is just stupid    the fly scotsman for example I cam imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement

I say restore her to running condition an engine is nothing but a lump of metal unless it alive  if you know what I mean.


the "originality" argument is flawed before its even started.  All the early NRM engines are virtually rebuilt from their original form.


I know mallard was in service for something like 45 years (probably more ) I dont think theirs much left  

if the NRM doesnt change its attitude were gonna end up with all of the most famous locos getting stuffed and turn into static displays


just get them all steamed, 251 on the mainline...wow

Lode Star is a good example of a loco to not steam, as she has original Swindon works paintwork, and its nice to preserve this.
pauly

I understand that to keep all engines in working order is mpossible but to just decide to stick such a famous engine on a piece of rail and say we will never steam her again is just wrong
James

4 A4s??  

I ain't a train buff, but I really like them!!

I wish I wasn't at this SHITTY wedding  
V8Nick

James wrote:
4 A4s??  

That's all of them! (well, all of them on this side of the pond).


Time to dust off that old "Mallard 88" video again.
alan2525

pauly wrote:
 the flying scotsman for example I can imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement


Yep here she is as of last month - looks like just the frames to me!



There are some other bits though, dotted around the NRM's workshops! Now where does this bit go, and why do I have so many bolts left over??
alan2525

pauly wrote:
I understand that to keep all engines in working order is mpossible but to just decide to stick such a famous engine on a piece of rail and say we will never steam her again is just wrong


When I was at the museum the argument was basically, there are enough restored A4's and as Mallard is so historically significant it's to be kept as original as possible. I think if they were to restore it, there'd be a bits box as large as the loco herself and 50% of the loco would probably be new.

I don't really think that the reason is money as I'm sure if the will was there, money would be raised and she'd be in steam again eventually.
mc_mc

I've seen the Mallard and the Nigel Gresley.

Oh my god, I'm turning into a train spotter.  

   
steamyman

I don't mean to *derail your thread - *pun intended.

but here's a few pics a friend sent me from his recent visit to the UK. Train  





Atticman

MTA wrote:
Atticman wrote:
MTA wrote:
I shall be celebrating this event this weekend on this train!:

http://www.steamdreams.com/content/view/169/1/

There will be a line up of 4 A4's at the NRM in York, which will be:

No. 60009 'Union of South Africa'
No. 60019 'Bittern'
No. 60007 'Sir Nigel Gresley'
No. 4468 'Mallard'

http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/reunion.asp

I'll be sure to get plenty of pics


By coincidence I too will be in Edinburgh this weekend, so I will at the very least be out taking pics, and looking out for Si at 8.30 am Sunday morning  


And I will be looking out for Tom at 8.30am on Sunday morning.

I get the distinct feeling we will look directly at each other and think 'Nah, it can't be him'


Too true mate  

You will be wearing the red mamod forum t shirt I hope  

I will be wearing traditional train spotting clothes    

Nice opics Clinton- thats on the NYMR I think
pauly

steamyman wrote:
I don't mean to *derail your thread - *pun intended.

but here's a few pics a friend sent me from his recent visit to the UK. Train  







shes my faviourate A4 and I get to see her all the time since I live pretty close to the NYMR
MTA

Atticman wrote:
MTA wrote:
Atticman wrote:
MTA wrote:
I shall be celebrating this event this weekend on this train!:

http://www.steamdreams.com/content/view/169/1/

There will be a line up of 4 A4's at the NRM in York, which will be:

No. 60009 'Union of South Africa'
No. 60019 'Bittern'
No. 60007 'Sir Nigel Gresley'
No. 4468 'Mallard'

http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/reunion.asp

I'll be sure to get plenty of pics


By coincidence I too will be in Edinburgh this weekend, so I will at the very least be out taking pics, and looking out for Si at 8.30 am Sunday morning  


And I will be looking out for Tom at 8.30am on Sunday morning.

I get the distinct feeling we will look directly at each other and think 'Nah, it can't be him'


Too true mate  

You will be wearing the red mamod forum t shirt I hope  

I will be wearing traditional train spotting clothes    

Nice opics Clinton- thats on the NYMR I think




I will probably be wearing my Amberley RailGroup shirt on the Sunday. You won't be able to miss me as it is a nice, dark shade of purple with a yellow oval on the front

Pauly, SNG is my favourite A4 as well. I think she was the first A4 I encountered when I went on the NYMR a few years ago, and she had just been overhauled the last time I went to the NYMR! She looks beautiful in BR Blue (runs for the hills...)
pauly

MTA wrote:
Atticman wrote:
MTA wrote:
Atticman wrote:
MTA wrote:
I shall be celebrating this event this weekend on this train!:

http://www.steamdreams.com/content/view/169/1/

There will be a line up of 4 A4's at the NRM in York, which will be:

No. 60009 'Union of South Africa'
No. 60019 'Bittern'
No. 60007 'Sir Nigel Gresley'
No. 4468 'Mallard'

http://www.nrm.org.uk/events/reunion.asp

I'll be sure to get plenty of pics


By coincidence I too will be in Edinburgh this weekend, so I will at the very least be out taking pics, and looking out for Si at 8.30 am Sunday morning  


And I will be looking out for Tom at 8.30am on Sunday morning.

I get the distinct feeling we will look directly at each other and think 'Nah, it can't be him'


Too true mate  

You will be wearing the red mamod forum t shirt I hope  

I will be wearing traditional train spotting clothes    

Nice opics Clinton- thats on the NYMR I think




I will probably be wearing my Amberley RailGroup shirt on the Sunday. You won't be able to miss me as it is a nice, dark shade of purple with a yellow oval on the front

Pauly, SNG is my favourite A4 as well. I think she was the first A4 I encountered when I went on the NYMR a few years ago, and she had just been overhauled the last time I went to the NYMR! She looks beautiful in BR Blue (runs for the hills...)


just looking at picures of her cunjures up memories
like when I was only a toddler I can remember sitting in a carriage in goathland and seeing her pass by and saying look ballard (I couldnt pronounce mallard)
made-in-england

On sunday i also found the reason why mallard wont be steamed!

Wont get it wrong straight off but will check on sunday!
Andy

pauly wrote:
theres no chance of that the NRM wants to keep the engine as original as possible which is just stupid    the fly scotsman for example I cam imagine theirs nothing original left of that except the frames maybe but everyone still calls it the flying scotsman not the flying scotmans replacement

I say restore her to running condition an engine is nothing but a lump of metal unless it alive  if you know what I mean.


It's not called "the flying scotmans" it called "flying scotman"

It like me callin mallard, the mallard
MTA

Re-read Pauly's post Andy, you have read it incorrectly!

On another note, I'm off to bed now as I have to leave the house at 0445 hours!

I doubt I will be able to get onto the internet over the weekend, so I'll say goodnight from me, and goodnight from him
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