A message to all steam enthuisiasts of Britsh steam.

pauly · A message to all steam enthuisiasts of Britsh steam.

This is to all the so called lovers of British steam preservation not just on this forum (thankfully very few) but on all forums and in all medias who have been flapping their gums about the 2 recent and highly controvershal livery changes to Scotsman and Tornado.

Seriously look a little deeper than the colour would you.

I think the British steam enthuisiast has become a little to complacent with the high quantity and quality of British steam preservation because everywhere I go all I hear people complain about are the dam liveries!

Tornado in Brunswick green, eww Im not used to that!
Scotsman in black! a travesty I say good sir!

What I should be hearing are sounds of wonder and awe as a truly beautiful machine which should have disappeared 50 years ago roars past to cheers and love of an admiring public and loving enthusiasts
its a load of whining about something very insignifigant, you dont like the paint? well get used to it, I didnt like Tornado in LNER Apple but I kept it to myself because at the end of the day it really doesnt matter.

If you cant look any deeper than the paintwork your not a true lover of British steam locomotives.

IndianaRog

I agree Pauly, I would dearly LOVE to see a restored live steam loco in ANY livery, black/blue or polka dots. It's the machine, not the makeup that counts.

You folks in the UK are blessed with dozens (hundreds?) of restored locos which you can not only view in museums, but on live on the tracks and you can readily take rides on trains being pulled by these wonderful locos. No one should give a damn about color!!

Yes...any locos that you don't like due to livery, please let us have them in the U.S., we won't discriminate based on color or blood lines!

Stoker

Well said Pauly!!!

pauly

johnreid

Pauly has if right, plus both liveries are supposedly temporary, the Scotsman will never even see Mainline service before it gets repainted. Celebrate them for the treat of seeing the different liveries that there were. Plus as mentioned, you are so very lucky to have them at all.
After all, it is paint and the colors are easily changed once they decide to do so.

Dean W

Well Pauly, there are snobs and malcontents in every hobby and venue.
Some people would complain if you hung 'em with a new rope!

johnreid

Well, old ropes do not leave as bad a mark on the neck

pauly

61264

I don't really care what colour it is, as long as it's not something stupid. It just needs to work properly.

johnreid

I like the idea of variety, if one is so fortunate to be able to have taken photos of an engine, if it is in a different livery for a short time, that means more variety with ones photos.

Dean W

You're a good champion for the cause, Pauly. Write a thoughtful editorial and send it to the local paper.
It seems to me that some people have life too easy if they're griping about paint. I've seen a similar thing here
with classic cars. At one show someone brought an original Shelby Cobra. It was painted black. Instead of people
appreciating one of the few cars around that Carroll Shelby actually built, they asked "why isn't it blue?". Some
people can't be pleased, (and they weren't all blue to start with).

flywheel61

Who gives a rats ****, what colour, it's the majesty, raw power & and preservation/conservation that counts - they are still here to see, that's the main thing.

BTW, thanks for the link to the Barry scrap yards story, it was bougth up recently on the forum, and I wondered what it was about. The mind boggles at the number of engines there.

Please keep up your fight, rather conservation, than the disappearance of fond memories, of a lot of us older members, of the forum. Thanks to people like you, they can still be seen today,

Cheers

Chris

MrDuck

I can't quite agree as the livery is a part of history that should be preserved as people appreciate it.

Either you go to the original or the most representative historical livery but contemporarianism is a selfish selfimposotion on history.

warwickshiresteam

Personally I reckon Tornado looks far better in Brunswick than it did in it's previous green. As it was built some 50 odd years after the last of its class was scrapped, Tornado does not as such have its 'own' historical livery, only one carried by different members of the original class so I think 'anything goes' for it. It looked pretty good in its grey undercoat which really proves its the engine that looks impressive whatever the colour.

Scotsman in black takes a bit of getting used to, although very dirty black is how I saw it all those years ago in BR ownership. It's the same with Britannia (seen below); it took a while to get used to seeing it in black due to Oliver Cromwell's green being familiar.

There was a ridiculous fuss a couple of years back when Royal Scot was outshopped in the wrong shade of Crimson. Mind you, I wouldn't like to return to the days when the Keighley people had their own colour schemes!

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And just to show how good Tornado looked in the 'wrong' livery....

Atticman

I suppose some people like to moan- if its not the colour its the weather or both usually.
Since many people dont understand how it all works, the colour is the most obvious thing to talk about.
I remember years ago buying a car for the Mrs, I was rather embarrassed to have to ask the first question, what colour is it?
If it wasnt the "right" colour she wouldnt have had it

Les

You can please some people all of the time.
You can please all the people some of the time.
But you cannot please all the people all of the time.

We live in a country famed for its free speech and everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether they are right or wrong.

Wallace

Well said Pauly

I too don't care what colour it is. Keeping them going is the most important.
I recently saw monster moves where 2 x 8F? class locos were being taken back home to the UK from Turkey. It won't matter what colour they end up, the main thing is they have been rescued by enthusiasts.

Tonupbear

I am not into trains, but agree fully that preservation is the most important thing, having said that it is nice to have the colours historically correct as seen in old photos. But I guess there must be a good reason for changing .

steamtrack

I thought the Scotsman was painted black during the war years
surely that is historical reason enough to keep it black

DolwyddelanLightRail

I completel agree with you Pauly, I've had several conversations recently about Flying Scot and there are some people who think the black looks horrific. In my personal opinion I think it looks absolutly brilliant in the black, and if I hadn't had come out in black, and come out the usual Apple green, I wouldn't have bothered to go and see it! Re-painting locos should be done every now and then to keep interest within the steam enthusiasts etc, especially with Flying Scot as it's pretty much always been green for how many years? and now that its come out in a different livery it's created much more interest than it would have done!

I do like to have a little banter with people about liveries and like the take the mick sometimes, but as pauly said there are some people around who are arrogant and don't like change (OK, i'll admit to that on other grounds!

) and they always want it in a certain livery, no matter what other peoples opinions are. This is also another reason why I have my own little railway, cause I always like painting the liveries etc and the motto for the railway on those terms are "you can paint it any colour you like, as long as it's black!"

SapperAnt

There was an interesting letter in Steam Railway from four old chaps who cancelled their railtour behind Bittern because she is now Garter Blue and "they did not want to see an A4 in blue" and thought she looked ugly because of it.

For my ten pennerth, a locomotive's livery should be authentic to the mechanical condition it is in. Ergo Tornado being brand spanking new could wear ANY livery from any period even the GNER if they wanted.

Flying Scotsman with Double Chimney and Kylchap exhaust can only carry BR livery authentically, and at the end of the day thats what about the Preservation and Restoration of a locomotive or a railway building is about - Authenticity and Accuracy (working in a Museum I can give you chapter and verse about that and what is and what isnt acceptable etc etc. Mind you, if she were being prepared as a Museum Exhibit the though arises that all the parts that are modern replacements would have to be highlighted as such so clearly demonstrate what is original and what is new restoration). Restoration is about being authentic and accurate from the first bolt to the last coat of varnish.

MooseMan

To be honest, I think Tornado would still look pretty good in hot pink! All I see is an incredible piece of machinery, I really couldn't care less which livery it's in, as long as it's well painted.

Dampfmaschine

Pauly is right - There is nothing more annoying when you have spent every weekend for months / years restoring something - Just for someone who never gets their hands dirty to come along and give their expert opinion about some detail or other.

SapperAnt

Well you can with Tornado. Its got no "Grandfather" rights.

I thought she looked amazing in just grey.

warwickshiresteam

Which museum do you work at SapperAnt?

There are always huge anomalies as regards loco appearance and their 'correct' liveries. Due to various modifications to the original designs it can even be argued that Tornado is not a true A1. And how authentic is an A4 (and formerly an A3) having a second tender? And how rubbish would many preserved lines look if all ex BR coaches were painted in blue/grey etc.

I think that any livery that can argued as being a correct for a particular class of loco during it's entire lifetime is acceptable, irrespective of whether that individual engine carried it or one had excatly the same physical appearance.

And on liveries, doesn't the blue King look brilliant.

SapperAnt

I work for the Museum of the Manchester Regiment.

Anything we have that we have restored we HAVE to according to Museum And Archive Guidelines and as a matter of Curatorial Policy to show what is authentic and what isnt. So that future generations KNOW what we did. So that the object can be "read" so it is obvious what is original, what are later additions and what we have restored.It also allows any work we have done today to be undone by future generations. That is standard operating procedure for UK museums, archivves and galleries. If a painting is retored the restoration has to a) not detract and b) be easily identified as a restoration.

In presenting an object to the public that object has to be authentically presented as possible and its outward appearance has to be authentic and, with for example vehicles, be authentic to its current mechanical state/appearance.

I was absolutely gobsmakced wtih the ELR when some former Cornonation Scot vehicles which had been used for departmental work were just ripped out with not even a thought towards the history of the vehicle, no recording of the appearance of the vehcile as it arrived or the history of it. Just rip out the later stuff to get back to the "original" or perceived original and using modern materials in its reconstruction as opposed to authentic ones such as modern plywood, glue, etc. Livery is all part of an authentic restoration and reconstruction and is as much a part of it as getting the correct metal and bolts etc.

When I was working as an Organ Builder and we had to work with a Historic Organ we had to work with English Heritage and also Museum guidelines with regards to restorations,e.g. complete description of the instrument as it was when we found it, complete record of what was done, keeping ALL the pieces removed from the organ and labelling them etc and making sure our work was as authentic as possible, did not detract from the original material and could be removed by future generations. With one organ we had dating from 1860 it had stupidly heavy action (it was really hard to play) but we could not alter the gearing of the action to make it lighter or replace the single pedal stop -an enormous Open Diapason which just booomed like a fog horn with one which was more musical and sublte - to make it more musical - because it was original and we could not alter it in anyway. So we were left with an organ mostly as the builders intended it - hard work to play
and with a basically unusable pedal department. But that's what the guidelines said and we had to stricly adhere to them and the advice from an externally appointed advisor. If a steam railway is a Museum (and I mean one that is accredited not self-titled) it has to follow the same guidelines for all material and that includes locomotives...

Many steam locomotives are getting to the point where they are mostly new as hardly any original metal remains. Its the battle between authenticity, keeping a Locomotive as original and possible and the desire to see them running. Its getting to the point where its one or the other, espeically with older locomotives.

warwickshiresteam

Sounds like fascinating stuff you do at the museum; hugely rewarding but absolutely frustrating at times I would think.

Another point to take into account of course is the rarity of the item. A solitary A1 or A2 has to represnt the whole class and it's history, but we are lucky to have four A4's that can simultaneously have a number of colour schemes. An unsteamable museum-loco of course can also be considered differently to one that's earning its keep.

No one seems to mind cutting up 'just another Hall class' to help make a class that no longer exists. Is just another Hall, but a real engine with genuine history, more or less important than a class that has gone and can become a new-build?

Good point about what is left of the original, how much of the newly-paraded Scotsman was outshopped in 1923? I believe it may only be the wheel-centres!

Tonupbear

Not steam I know, but some people are interested in old buses, trolley buses etc , as far as I know these were painted different colours for each town or city, say Liverpool buses were painted green and St Helens red and cream, any restoration would be incomplete if they were not painted in the correct colours for each area.

Many people strive to get the correct colour for their Mamods and other engines , so in many instances colour does matter.

Dont know anything about trains, just thought I would jump in with both feet lol. I will get my coat.

SapperAnt

The rarity and uniqueness of the item is why, for example City of Birmingham will never be steamed as she is in exactly the condition as withdrawn and is planned to be conserved as such.

To me, coming from a Heritage background, isnt the loco running but preserving it and keeping as much of the original material as possible and having an "honest" exhibit (which is what steam locomotives are). Having it up and running is all very nice, but at what cost to the original machine? And where is the cut off point for authenticity? Last BR overhaul? As withdrawn? As built? Yesterdays light general?

For Flying Scotsman the main frames are original. The rearmost section of the frames are from Salmon Trout and were welded on in 1944. The cylinders and the A4 boiler are likewise from Salmon Trout.

The rest I'm not sure about but shes pretty much Grandad's Axe which has had four new heads and three new handles but still is the same Axe Grandad bought. Somehow. Mystically.

pauly

magpie38

When Pete Waterman brieflty owned the Scotsman he chaged the livery to a lighter sahde of green and recived death threats, one threat came from a retired clergyman, needless to say he sold the Scotsman as he did not need the hassle

pauly

Madness, sheer madness!

johnreid

As said before, the black is only for a short period of time, it will be Apple green before the summer is over.

SapperAnt

Period perfect and preserved for future generations. These "Cultural Resource Management" issues and the ethics thereof I studied at University. It can be quite contentious but in the main comes down to one thing: preservation and conservation, keeping things authentic.

"Stuffed and mounted" is such a loaded phrase, suggesting glasses cases with taxidermist exhibits, perhaps boring, old fashioned,no fun,....academic even, without realising perhaps why objects are or need to be "stuffed and mounted".

You'll say "thats no fun, I want to see my steam trains now". But what about future generations? If we flog Scotsman and other locos to death now, whats going to be left of them for the future? How much of an authentic locomotive can we pass down to the next generation?

Its going to get to the point where there is nothing left of the original by keeping in Scotsman and other locos of that age in steam. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say yes this is Fyling Scotsman and this isnt? What % of new metal? 20% 30% 50%? And, also if the National Railway Museum is meant to be the leading example of a Railway Museum and locomotive preservation and CONSERVATION how can it turn out a loco in a livery that it knows is not authentic? The NRM knows the LNER green liver is wrong for the engine in BR condition but doesnt care, turns a blind eye. Double standards and hypocracy.

There is no differance in my mind between Flying Scotsman and any other museum exhibit; it needs preserving and conserving for the nation. If that object can perform the task asked of it when designed and built that's fantastic, but that should not come at the expense of loss of authenticity (in terms of material removed or added from/to the original) and also with regards to its curation (i.e. display and custodianship).

Given the money spent on Flying Scotsman they couldve built a new one. And one that can be used and run on the mainlain and comply to modern safety standards etc rather than something over 70 years old in part and trying to keep it going.

Scotsman is a unique example of a class oflocos and therefore needs to be kept as authentic as possible i.e. with minimum of replacement of parts.

As these engines get older and older there will come a day when replicas will have to be considered or else there will be nothing original left of locomotives and you might as well have a new build. Id love to see Lion back in steam, but it will never ever happen due to the loss of original material and authenticity in so doing.

The problem in my mind is that Railway Preservationists have the notion its alll about running trains. Yes, thats one part of it but not the be all and end all. Preservation is about preserving what we have. conserving it. keeping it for future generations. recognising the limits and balanced between conservation and restoration. Somehow that gets lost.

But then I gues that makes me "Boring".

pauly

But if their not ran then the general public isnt going to give a s**t in a few years, nobody other than hardcore enthuisiasts are going to care about these museum pieces and nobody else will become interested.

If you drag a child who isnt interested to a museum full of static locos there not going to care but if you take them to a preserved railway with working steam their fascinated by it, if you had your way the preservation movement would become stagnent and die out.

Nessecary sacrifices mate!

E=MC2 · Liveries Of Railway Locomotives And Motor Vehicles.

Liveries Of Railway Locomotives And Motor Vehicles.

It is not just the liveries of railway locomotives that enthusiasts are passionate about,but the liveries of historic lorries,buses,motorcoaches,military vehicles,etc.
In regard to railway locomotives,for me there was and is far too much green used on railway locomotives,so Great Eastern Railway Blue,LNER Blue,LMS Crimson Lake,LNER Silver and Grey,BR Blue,London Metropolitan Railway Red,and,yes,BR Black!,and other colours make a beautiful and refreshing change from the seemingly usual green. Of course there is green and green,ie differant shades of green: TORNADO has never looked better now that it is in Brunswick Green! And after a certain period in the black livery,FLYING SCOTSMAN,ought to be painted in Brunswick Green too! Yes,I much prefer the Brunswick Green to the Apple Green. Southern Railway Green,used on Bullied's Air Smoothed Pacifics,is also quite attractive too.
Actually,now that TORNADO is in Brunswick Green (which is similar to SR Green) and has attractive SR Battle Of Britain
Pacific-style nameplates,it could be mistaken for a Southern Railway steam railway locomotive!.......but it looks great anyway!

Generally speaking,the liveries on preserved British Steam,Diesel and Diesel Electric Railway Locomotives are historically accurate - and they have got to be to maintain historical accuracy!
So I've got mixed feelings on the liveries of railway locomotives.
I wrote this on BIGLORRYBLOG a few days since:-
"I've always said that a very good and attractive livery really sets off a lorry's appearance,and accentuates the motor vehicle's styling and looks in general - and this statement applies to other types of motor vehicle as well" -But it also applies to railway locomotives,aeroplanes,model and full-size steam engines and so on.
Motorcoach,Bus and Lorry Enthusiasts are perfectionists when it comes to restoring their motor vehicles in the correct liveries-even down to the correct type of lettering and other details - and very rightly so! Thus a preserved Sheffield United Tours AEC Relance Motorcoach MUST be in the correct SUT livery! A preserved Yorkshire Traction Leyland Tiger TS7 Single Decker Bus,HE 6762,No.492,is in the authentic YTC livery of the post-war era.
And a recently restored Foden S21 Spaceship Sputnik FE6/2 is now this:-
Foden S21 Spaceship Sputnik FE6/24 Two Stroke 8-Wheeler Sugar Tanker,868 GLB,of 1963,Tate & Lyle. Magnificent!:-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4799...5631044620/in/faves-62553751@N06/
A Tate & Lyle Foden Sugar Tanker is one of the most iconic images in British Road Transport History! And it just would not do for the above Foden to be painted "any-old-how"

On the other hand,many historic lorries are not painted in original liveries,but they still look attractive. Certain preserved
motorcoaches and buses are painted in the liveries of their later operators,after having been originally sold on,and that includes their present owners.
All of which reminds me of the great Peter Davies,author of many lorry books,and photographer of thousands of lorries.......
he's a real perfectionist when it comes to lorries,their liveries and general appearance. Personally. I like the best of both worlds in regard to the liveries of motor vehicles and railway locomotives

Robert.

warwickshiresteam

SapperAnt you make some good well argued points there even if many will disagree. I must point out though that in the case of the Scotsman that its current rebuild did not I believe result in the removal of a single piece of the original loco, or perhaps even of the loco as it was when first preserved.

I think too a distinction can be drawn between the historic locos saved for us all in the National Collection, and those rescued privately and in particular from Barry Scrapyard. The National Collection are perhaps those that should be considered more for not renovating and removal of original parts and indeed many have not run for some years and with no prospect of doing so. Those from Barry on the other hand are privately owned, restored with manufactured replacement parts and survive ONLY because the owners wanted to buy and steam them.

The trouble with the Scotsman of course is its fame - there would be a major outcry if it were mothballed the same as say Green Arrow simply because of the need to replace a solitary original part.

I think many of the arguments on both sides are difficult to apply to all locos and each should be taken on its merit.

johnreid

I do not foresee Mallard getting a different paint scheme, it is a static display and a true wonder to behold, but it is also a good point that seeing Locomotives under steam doing the job that they were built for is also a joy.

invicta280

It is possible to get pedantic to the nth degree on this. Everthing wears out eventually, so if you want to keep it going you need
new bits, so it won't be 100% original. Where do you draw the line?
You can say that bits that naturally wear out (boilers/valves/bearings etc) are consumables in the same way that the loco consumes oil
or brake shoes. Our bodies are the same . You may recognise someone as your friend after ten years. He's still the same person
even though every single cell in his body has been replaced.

People are inclined to get very precious about authenticity. Maybe the dead sea scrolls or the Magna Carta need to be wrapped in cotton wool, but railway locos should be used and when bits wear out or are damaged just rplace them as authentically as possible.
Keep the bit you've replaced in a glass case if necessary.

Wandering-Willie

I have to admit I wasnt happy about flying scotsman at first, but, Now I love to see her storming through Doncaster at 75mph in black!!! A bit of steam oil rubbed over her and she shall be fine!!!

In terms of having a steam engine running, if there put in a museum, they will only just sit and rust, may not be now, but they will eventually. Who knows if steam traction will ever be banned, thats why, whenever tere is something happening near me, 90% of time im there, be it rail road water or stationary!!!

End of the day, its a bit of paint, just like on your wall, and it can and will be changed at some point or another!!!

dampfmaschinenjoe 1967

I like to see steam locos as a piece of technical art. That´s the reason why I like them. The outward appearance should possibly be of the period the engine once was built but that is not half as important as the opportunity to see the engine brought back to life in preservation.
My Motto is: Every steam engine kept alive in preservation is worth the effort wether the colour is right or wrong. In my humble opinion there´s no right or wrong, important is that its painted at all.

cheers Joe

E=MC2 · Liveries Of Railway Locomotives And Motor Vehicles.

Liveries Of Railway Locomotives And Motor Vehicles.

The Website below is a very good guide to British Steam Railway Locomotives And Rolling Stock Liveries:-
http://www.elegantsteam.com/

And this Hornby Website is also good:-

http://www.modeltrains.net.au/hornby/livery_menu.asp

And here are some more websites:-
http://webcache.googleusercontent...gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_corporate_liveries

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/006-index.htm

My other Post on this subject is the seventh one up from this one,and I also ought to have written that,although many lorries - and some buses and motorcoaches - that are now preserved used to be fairground vehicles,not many of them are preserved as fairground vehicles. Which is a great shame,since fairground vehicles are vehicles in their own right and should be preserved as such

Robert.

johnreid

While we are splitting hairs or counting rivets, lets discuss something that was mentioned to me when I was in the UK. an avid Trainspotter asked where my rail journey had started and I mentioned a certain Station in London. He and a friend got started on an argument, is it Kings Cross or is it King's Cross

E=MC2 · King's Cross Railway Station And Kings Cross District.

SapperAnt

lendusaquid

Stoker

Bottom line is that while in actual service in their heyday, locomotives required regular servicing and the frequent replacement of many parts that were sacrifical to the operation. Bearings, bushings, rings, seals, tires, etc. are/were all designed to be replaced on a fairly regular basis, and to do so now in no way diminishes authenticity of the original locomotive. Given a long enough life, some engines received new drivers and boilers and boggies and pumps and cabs and you name it. Are they still original? You bet! They are a machine that requires servicing to maintain their function and usefulness. They aren't a Rembrant or the Crown Jewels, they are a Machine with inherent wear incurred during normal operation needful of service and parts replacement!

They are not a static treasure, they are a dynamic treasure!

And as for paint ... so what. They changed color a time or three during their service life most likely, so they can do so again now I suppose. Obviously it would be best to put them into colors appropriate to their history, but if not ... at least they are painted, and can be made a different, more correct color again at will.

... or so I think!!!

johnreid

I have seen signs at and about the station showing it spelled both ways, just something else for people to nit pick about, Irregardless I sure enjoyed the architecture and the atmosphere of the historic station, I also saw where platform 9 3/4 is supposed to be and had to pay 30 P in order to pee

pauly

SapperAnt

The line

"If you had your way the preservation movement would become stagnant and die out"

I find that most insulting and percieve it to be a personal attack.

I understand that to mean that you disagree with me so mcuh that I - Anthony - am or would be to blame for the Railway Heritage movement dying out. You also suggest that the guidlines and practices set out by Museums and English Heritage are due to me and "my way". They are not the product of Anthony. I am merely describing what is understood to be best practice and various codes of conduct associated with Cultural Resource Management. Thankyou.

Freespawn

I personaly prefer things to be used as they were ment to be used i still fire my 1902 bing and yes im sure parts will wear out but im happy to make replacements. same thing with steam trains they were meant to be used!

pauly

David

A train's a train, whatever colour it is. The Scotsman's black, it's still the Scotsman. History is in the past, although it is sometimes nice to keep history we are in the present.

I would love to see either the Flying Scotsman or Tornado, no matter what colour they are.

Stoker

Well SA

I think your skin may be just a little too thin to be taking part in a public discussion. While I do agree with Pauly's summation, I don't see where anything he said was actually intended to be taken as anything but the In General "you", while you seem to WANT to take it as only meaning "you Anthony", and of course if that is how you want to read it, then that is entirely up to you.

But being an open discussion, I think he is free to agree or disagree with the concept, and equally free to agree or disagree with you in your support of that concept. Obviously you disagree with him and his lack of support for your view, so where's the difference?

Either way, I certainly see nothing to be calling in the Mods about!

Please try not to make problems out of simple discourse, where none actually exist.

Thank you.

johnreid

I do not think that there is a mean bone in Paulys body, nothing personal was intended, just a little disagreement.

Both parties have good points, however, the context might be different from one persons view to the other. When does a Steam Locomotive become an ancient artifact? Preservation can wear multiple hats I believe and there is a place for both points of view.

Stoker

Well said John ... I wish I'd put a little more of your empathy in my prior post!

SapperAnt

Appology accepted.

RE. questions when something becomes an historical artefact:

When it is handed into the care of a Registered Museum, such as the NRM or the Museum of the Manchester Regiment.

If the state decides that object or building is worth preserving (e.g.listed buildings, listed pipe organs etc).

In those situations an object comes under the questions/issues/ethics of cultural resource management as I outlined. The Museum or owner then have a duty of care to keep the object or building in the state it was in at the time/point of donation/acquisition or listing. Any changes made to that object or building have to be approved etc etc etc.

If in the protection of a custodian organisation that is not an acredited museum body then the cultural resource management issues become guidelines and not enforceable.

For example:Flying Scotsman is a Museum Artefact; Sir Nigel Gresley is in the care of a custodian organisation. Therefore both have two differant management strategies.

Just sayin' thats how Cultural Resource Management works. Having worked in the heritage sector and living in a listed building it can be very frustrating and very rewarding. For example, I can't repaint my front door without listed building consent and without using authentic paint and writing a report on what was needed to be done, was done, how and why. Similarly, a museum conservation officer cant touch an object for display or conservation witih out similar permissions etc etc. "Industrial Archaeology" and "Railway Archaeolgoy" are very new disciplines and have only been developing in the last 15 to 20 years or so as a reponse to a loss of Industrial heritage, and a growing awareness of its importance. It's not so long ago that Victorian buildings were just demolished and any archaeology that wasn't Roman or Pre-historic was just dug through!

warwickshiresteam

Kings Cross or King's Cross ?

It is the latter as it is named after a cross roads that had a statue of a specific King, George 4th, not multiple kings. Thus it is a cross belonging to a King.

For more than one King, you had to go to Paddington.

Wallace

flywheel61

The bottom line here, is that we are dealing with conservation, not preservation. As someone else said before, an engine has undergone many services, including replacement of parts. To me preservation means leaving the original as it was (status quo), and that simply hasn't happened - if it had, all remaining engines would look like those in the Barry Dockyard image. To keep an engine running means conserving it for current & future gnerations.

This debate will always continue, but I firmly believe that Pauly is right, think about what is, and the priceless pleasure obtained from it, not what was.

Cheers

Chris

bessytractor

I myself have been on the recieving end of this difficult subject. I own a 7 1/4 diesel shunter built in 1958 which carries a lot of history. I overhauled the engine plant but its too unreliable due to its age. I rumbled the words "new engine" and some were horrified I could consider it. The previous owner agreed with me and so I bought a replacement engine on the quiet, its going in this winter, objectors be damned! Its a question of practicality. At one point I suggested electric drive and was met with 100% opposition. What with it being a historic loco I found people tend to oppose changes like a new engine, even though a new boiler in a steam loco from that era is seen as fine.

MrDuck

Of course you must do what you can do to keep it running but as you noted there will be opinions.

It's a matter of tons of factors that angle in.

warwickshiresteam

SapperAnt's views should not be dismissed perhaps as much as they have been.

If one takes the opposite view that all locos are there to be run - who would want the remnants of the original Rocket and other early engines dismembered and rebuilt with new parts to run again? Also, Furness Railway No 3 'Coppernob' I believe still has its original boiler (or at least a very old one) and is theoretically steamable, but who would want to risk damaging the engine, or replace original parts?

Another more recent loco to which this argument can apply is Lode Star. Many, including myself, would love to see it in steam again but how much of the existing unique loco would have to be discarded for this to happen?

As I said before, it is not possible to cover all locos with one point of view. Each must be taken on merit and considered accordingly taking in account its history and uniqueness.

And for those looking to mamod for comparitive arguments, I have a good collection of upgraded and altered mamod locos, but I also have an 'original' collection that I will never alter due to their 'historical' significence.

Les

I wonder how many original parts are left on the Flying Scotsman taking into account wear'n'tear and rebuilds.

warwickshiresteam

Keep Up Les !! We went through that a couple of pages back !!

Les

johnreid

I think most people keep losing sight of the fact that the Black paint on the Scotsman is only for a VERY short period of time, it just as well could have been displayed wearing primer gray, from what I have read, it will be back to Apple Green before it sees any service on the circuit. As far as Tornado goes, new Loco so any color they choose should be fine, why not give it a bit of variety. Some day in the future some Grandfather will show is Granson some photos he took of it and say "That must have been 2011 when it had the Brunswick Green, much better looking than the Blue that it is now"

Dampfmaschine

Don't suppose the 1 in 12 men or 1 in 50 women who are colour blind will be to fussy

MrDuck

I can assure you we are the most fussy of all

dampfmaschinenjoe 1967

After all it is only a colour scheme. And colour schemes can be changed If the people want to, due to the discussion about preferences . What never ever could and should be changed is the importance of the flying scotsman for the british railway heritage as a piece of working steam art.

cheers Joe

bessytractor

E=MC2 · British Railways Express Passenger Blue,Etc

pauly

A little bit of thread resurrection here

I was just thinking about this argument among the railway society and had a little idea.

Dont think of what we do with the locos as preservation, think of it as maintenance!

MrDuck

It's really that the subjects for maintenance are too far gone for that

David

As I probably said earlier: (I can;t quite remember if I have already posted on this thread)

No matter what colour the loco is, it is working. It is better than it being sat in a scrapyard somewhere rusting away to nothing. I love looking at steam locos, no matter what colour they are. If they are still running on the main line and hauling coaches, they are still working engines and therefore reapaints are maintenance, not preservation.

MrDuck

Not just colour, David. It's a bit more when the colour carries such symbolic and emotional weight with people.

Also there is the question of worn parts...

Wandering-Willie

ferrysteam

MrDuck

The truth is somewhere in between...

If he took a big thingie and smashed it to bits in his privacy, nobody would be wiser but if he shows it and changes it, everybody will be opined.

We social creatures and strange that way that we opine upon and judge others actions.

Wandering-Willie

ministeamer

A message to all steam enthuisiasts of Britsh steam.

Liveries Of Railway Locomotives And Motor Vehicles.

Liveries Of Railway Locomotives And Motor Vehicles.

King's Cross Railway Station And Kings Cross District.

British Railways Express Passenger Blue,Etc