Cheddar Tram revisited

WillH · Cheddar Tram revisited

Greetings to all!

I’m new to this forum and live steam in general! Played with trains all my life-but not live steam. In the last couple years I have assembled two kits Roundhouse, ‘Billy’ and Katie’, also have a ‘Fowler”. My location is near Cottonwood, CA USA. That’s my history.

My post:

A nice little incomplete Cheddar Tram came into my possession. It’s not damaged and does not appear to have been steamed! Missing a cab and manual. Wish I could post pictures. I can email them to someone if they would post for me – I have an iMac, which makes it interesting, not much software support.

I would like a copy of the operating manual for the Cheddar Tram. Water level information, etc., would be fantastic!

Also, I can’t understand how the displacement oiler functions. I am very familiar with displacement oilers. There is no way to drain the water! Does one need to suck the water out of the oiler and then re-fill with oil?

There is a servo installed. How does the direction and throttle combination work? Will RCS work as a radio control unit? If so, how is it wired to operate a single dual function control unit?

The Cheddar Tram is actually very well made! Not a Roundhouse, but it looks like a fun engine to complete and run. I attempted contact with Stuart Models but they didn’t respond! I was actually thinking about one of their engines. Not too sure now! In any event I would appreciate any help, suggestions or general comments regarding my Cheddar Tram project!

Best,

WillH

Les Marsh

Welcome to the forum from Bournemouth.

Cannot help you with much, except the displacement oiler does need emptying and re-filling after each steam. You will need a small syringe with a long needle to empty it.

Les Marsh

This thread might be of some interest to you.

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=8159&start=0

steamyjim

I don't have the instructions for the Tram but i have the insutructions for an Iver somwhere. Basicly thre same boiler and chassis

If i can find them ill scan them

I generally run my Iver with the boiler 3/4 full at the start.

You need a syringe with a long needle to empty the lubricator as Les says

Im not sure how the servo is wired up, but you only do need 1 servo

It has a rotary valve (on Iver it does anyway) a bit like the old Mamod locos

Aye Cheddar Models engines are beutiful and very well made!

Hope this helps.

Anything else about Cheddar Engines ask as im quite knowledgable with them. Very freindly with the people who used to run it

CCairns

Great to see another member with a Cheddar Tram.

IndianaRog

Hi Will, welcome aboard from Indiana, USA. I see our resident Cheddar experts are already responding to your questions. That is the beauty of this forum, there is usually someone (or ten) who can answer such questions on most anything toy steam related.

cheers,
Roger

WillH

Thank you gentlemen!

That was quick! You are indeed a very friendly group!

Les, thanks for the oiler info – I was afraid of that! Think I’ll drill a hole in the bottom then silver solder in a drain valve. I did read CCains posting regarding his Tram, copied it as a matter of fact. His Tram is much more complete than mine. I just have the boiler and frame as a complete unit. Nothing else……

Steamyjim, thank you.. It would be great to have some documentation on the engine. That’s kinda what I was hoping to get from Stuart Models. Anyhoo, I’m looking forward to getting the ole’gal running.

Chris, geeze you guys at too fast for me! As I was posting a reply and you answered. I'm going to send you an email with photos of my little project.

Best,

Will

CCairns

I've just scanned the Iver instructions but need some time to format them. Must stop for a Dinner break but will put them in the library, and some more info in this posting shortly.

CCairns

OK, got half of the instructions ready to upload. Just taking a break from using MS Paint to clean up the rest. If you have not found my Cheddar Iver it is here - http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about4942.html

The Tram uses a modified Iver boiler, basically a shorter chimney with the exhaust steam pipe being a side entry, and a vacuum relief valve. The Iver boilers had a steam valve fitted on the later models, and this could be fitted to earlier models. This was used to shut off the steam supply at the end of a run to prevent sucking up the oil, etc from the lubricator/engine, but it also was used to restrict the supply of steam to the cylinders to stop the characteristic Mamod runaway tendencies that the early Ivers could suffer from (referred to as Low Flying Ivers on another online Forum).

With the demise of Cheddar we now have the Iver re-released by Stuart Models, so a possible source of spares, but at a high price. There is one ex-Cheddar employee who is a seller on ebay, but only small items like 'O' rings, oil, etc. His ID is clevedonsteam on ebay.uk

Look out for the Iver Instructions in the Steam Reference Library hopefully later tonight.

WillH

Chris,

Looking forward to seeing the written word. Is there an archive location on this forum for posting information?

Finally, have all the rust, and years of not so good storage, cleaned away and everything is smooth as silk. These Cheddars really are well made!

Hopefully, I will be able to try the Cheddar on compressed air tomorrow! I know just pucker up and blow…….

Best,

Will

CCairns

WillH

Chris!

Wow, that is great. Have the info printed off, will digest it later today. I certainly do appreciate your efforts - Thank you!

Best,

Will

WillH

First little headache. There is a collar over the piston rod packing. It will not stay in place. There are no threads. There is nothing to secure the collar to the steam cylinder. So, how does one keep the collar in place? I thought about just a light dimple with a center punch…. hate to hammer on the ole gal. Is there a better way? What do you guys do?

Best,

Will

Nick

from Minnesota!

Pictures would be very helpful.

Les Marsh

WillH

I figured a glue would be the order of the day. I'll head into town today and see if any Loctite products will do the job! Need to check my to-do list and be sure a trip to town is worth while!

I could use a little help with the picture posting deal! I have an Apple iMac running Leopard, so appropriate software is difficult to find. I did send pictures to Chris with the hope he might have pitty - until I get the picture posting deal sorted out!

Thanks,

Best,

Will

WillH

This is a test:

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Hopefully this is visible to all.

Best,

Will

WillH

Below is a project I just completed. I assembled the 'Billy' from a kit and ran it over 500 hours. During that time it suffered an unfortunate accident toppling off my tank - bending the frame. Anyhoo, decided to completely redo the engine this winter. The photo was of it's first steam up after the overhaul.

Best,

Will

WillH

Here's the Cheddar after a clean up. The majority for the rust and gunk was removed, cylinder mating surfaces lapped with boiler fittings cleaned and resealed. Turns very smooth by hand!

BTW, Struart Models finally contacted me about the Iver fuel tank. $214.00 USD! I wished them good luck!

Best,

Will

CCairns

Sorry Will, but I'm working away from home at present, so no access to my computer to get the photos transfered.

Nice to see that Stuart Models are keeping to sensible prices!! As we are in the EU, we have to pay 17.5% Value Added Tax on top of the prices Stuart Models list, so their Iver is very expensive (at least in my opinion), when you compare the Accucraft locos which are available cheaper from the Isle of Man, where VAT prices are already inclusive.

Without being able to check my Cheddar locos at present, I would have thought as suggested that using loctite would be your solution to that stray collar. Will have a look at mine on Monday on my return home.

Les Marsh

Your test pictures are certainly working.

WillH

Perfectly okay Chris.... I needed to find a photo site that is Apple friendly.

Couldn't find any Loctite! Well, not the proper type. That's the problem living where we do! If it weren’t for the Internet my materials shopping would completely stop! I believe I'm the only person doing G 45mm scale live steam in the area. Lots of electric trains - no steam.

I tell ya.....I was really excited about Stuart Models bringing the Cheddar line back to life! Now, very disappointed! Guess they have a following of heavy wallet types so they don't need poor folks like me! Personally, I like Roundhouse and will stay with them as long as the quality remains high. Plus, they are great people to deal with.........

Anyhoo, I starting on the Tram body. I'll post my progress. Looking forward to input and suggestions.

Best,

Will

Oops! The 'Billy' fell off my track not my tank. I'm the typo king and getting worse with age.....

Another 'Billy" photo.

steamyjim

I love that tram!

I always wanted one to go with my Iver but couldn't afford it

WillH

The tram survived the air test. Plenty of good with no slow! I have electronics coming from RCS to provide single stick control. Needed to lengthen the stack, I discovered a piece of 3/4" ID copper pipe fit perfectly. I'll trim to the proper length later.

All that's needed now is the fuel tank and we'll boil some water!

Best,

Will

steamyjim

Can't wait to see this!

CCairns

I've just checked my Cheddar locos.

Whilst the Iver does not have those collars, the Tram does. Certainly looks like it is just held in place with some threadlock.

I guess it must have been a small improvement by Cheddar Models.

WillH

Chris!

You're back! Did the latest storm cause you any problems? Weather here has been perfect for running trains ...... and so I have......

Thanks for checking the collar mystery. I'll glue it on!

I haven't done anything with the tram lately, waiting for the fuel tank! I have some ideas for the body and started blanking out the brass pieces. Discovered I'm nearly out of solder. Only have about an inch or so of high temperature. Tends to make the fingers a tad bit warm, so had to order some more solder as well. The project is just marking time!

Best,

Will

WillH

Well! There was plenty of steam! Not much go!

Finally install a fuel tank. Fired the ole gal up! Gawd, what's that horrid whistle? Was really painful to the ears. Even the dog ran for cover! Do all Cheddars whistle like that?

The direction/throttle thingy leaked steam like crazy! I got a few revolutions outta the wheels then things would just sorta puttered out. Can't be a timing problem cause there nothing to time!

Is there a source for replacement throttles - just in case?

I'm gonna keep at it!

Best,

Will

Three hours later:

It's performing better. Tweeked the spring tensions and ran three more tanks of fuel and water. Actually has forward and reverse. Won't start on it's own however, still need to give it a push....? Has a great chuff at slow speed! Still has a ridiculous whistle........

steamyjim

You might want to fiddle with the gas jet height-sometimes helps stop the whistle

My Iver whistles

Id just run it and run it should help it all bed in

CCairns

Hi Will,

Good to read that you've finally got it going, albeit with some problems.

I've not owned a Cheddar loco from new, but would guess being oscillating cylinders, they would need some careful running in like the old style Mamods. Certainly on the few runs I've done with the Iver it will self start, although usually requires quite a bit of throttle to get started, and can slide to a halt with wheels stopped on my Mamod track. I know that you have already lapped all the appropriate surfaces, so these just need lubricating with some steam oil. The displacement lubricator should do its job very well, leaving you just some oily condensate at the end of a run to syringe out of the lubricator.

What pressure are you waiting for before running? - Cheddar suggests 45PSI, and having the gas set to maintain 40 - 60PSI.

Is the whistle noise steam generated or more of a loud shriek? The gas burners do make a unique sound, and need the jet setting set up carefully. Yours appears to be further out of the jet holder than mine, but I fire these engines using a butane/propane mix. I assume that you are just using butane as indicated on the gas tank.

If it is steam generated then sounds like something is leaking pressure. A little soapy water or steam oil over the safety valve, water top-up valve and vacuum relief valve should find the offending item. The silicone rubber tubing on the water top-up valves do go over time, particularly if there is any deposits in your water, and the tubing can be easily changed (I've had to do that to a few of my Mamod and other locos fitted with these valves). Not taken a vacuum relief valve apart, but assume they are fitted with some 'O' ring seals.

Hopefully steamyjim may have some other information on running these Cheddar locos, as I think it is just the 3 of us that own Cheddar locos on this Forum.

steamyjim

As i say have a good play with the setting of the gas jet. I might have a drawing somewhere. I got to do some scanning for Rog, if i can find it ill scan these aswell

My Iver being the prototype did a lot of demonstration runs so didn't need running in atall, wherhas my Pintail needed a good few hours running on air then another few hours under steam. It's still not perfect though

CCairns

steamyjim

I'll have a look at those scans

I used butane/propane mix

mc_mc

Sorry for the "stupid" question, but what's the difference between a "train" and a "tram".

It's a lovely looking beast all the same, hope you get it running well soon.

CCairns

In basic terms I think a tram is lighter than a train, and it was designed for a lot of street running. They were also less powerful than locomotives due to the limited space available for the boiler, etc.

Although none operate in normal service these days, there are still a few preserved worldwide. See here for a definition of tram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram , and here for a working steam tram http://www.geocities.com/tramwaynz/steam/steam.html , and another one here at MOTAT, New Zealand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HikM8GRJRvE&feature=related

WillH

Chris etal

Well, this is interesting and fun. Having never worked with anything Cheddar this is all new to me.

The whistle is just air being sucked into the burner chamber to support combustion. I fiddled with burner height last night. Chris the instructions you posted said to adjust for best burn – well, I can’t tell any difference no matter what I do to the jet height. I even removed the ceramic chamber from the boiler and tried that – couldn’t tell much difference in the flame either way either????? BTW I’m using pure butane – but I do use 70/30 mix in my engines. Might try that next.

The engine was running pretty well when I gave up last night. Bugger sure throws oil! I’m not going to rust – that’s for sure.

I do have a rather serious problem. It holds 40 psig just fine, until I set the wheels in motion, then the pressure drops to nearly 10 psig rapidly. I tried to adjust the burner setting looking for a hotter burn to help maintain pressure. No luck. It simply won’t hold steam pressure while running.

Here’s picture of the ole’ gal under steam! My camera froze the motion – couldn’t believe it! The steam oil coalesced on the driver wheel rim is the only indication that it’s running. Look closely at the front driver wheel to see the liquid spinning from the outer wheel rim. These little digital cameras are really something. Froze the motion and with a flash - those wheels were flying at the time. Well, I was impressed…

The saga will continue today.

Best,

Will

WillH

Chris etal

For some reason I posted the same thing twice. Must be really proud

Oops! We have wonderful day starting so I'm gonna put the Cheddar on the track. No guts, no glory! It won't hold steam pressure long enough to go very far anyhoo........

Steamyjim, me thinks you are correct... just run the engine! When I air tested the engine I only ran it for a couple minutes. Just enough to see if it was going to function. The engine was never steamed until now, it's just been sitting around. It's an oily mess now - the easy life is gone forever!

Best,

Will

CCairns

Yes I experienced a similar problem setting up the jet on my Cheddar Steam Launch 'Claire'.

The instructions talked about a line being scribbed on the jet, but mine had none. So I phoned up Cheddar Models and was told to start with the jet about half way in, then move it in until there was a strong smell of unburnt gas coming from the chimney and then slowly move it out until this smell disappeared, that is all the gas is being burnt. Lock in place and mark the jet. Not a very satisfactory method. I had similar problems with fitting a gas ceramic burner to my IP Jane, as the burner was hidden by the chassis plates. So I had to set that one up with the burner removed from the chassis. I found these instructions on www.ministeam.com which explain a bit better what you should be looking for in a ceramic burner, including the noise problem.

WillH

Chris,

I appreciate the words of caution. I talked with Roundhouse about the tank awhile back. Here's what they have posted on their web site:

"We offer a range of gas tanks as fitted to our locomotives. These are all fully finished, pressure tested and certified (conforms to the Pressure Equipmenr Directive 97/23/EC) and can be supplied either with or with out gas regulator and gas filler valve. Outlet pipes are all fitted with our standard 1/4" x 40ME union nut and nipple. All are capable of holding butane, iso-butane or butane/propane mixed gas in an operating temperature upto but not exceeding 65 degrees celcius."

I trust the "British" to do it right! Yes, that is a political statement!

I also appreciate those instructions for setting the burner flame. I will follow those instructions. Where can one find a replacement ceramic burner element? Just in case!

Best,

Will

CCairns

It is interesting that Roundhouse say their gas tanks are suitable for butane/propane mix, as on other online forums I've read owners discussing the fact that Roundhouse say only use butane gas with their locos.

Only dealer I've found online so far that do these small circular gas ceramic burners are our good rip-off friends at Stuart Models. Very rarely see them on ebay.

WillH

Chris,

First! The smell test did the trick! Just sniff the stack! That actually works! I shoulda known that! It's all set - no squealing! Thank you my friend! The other deal worked fine while the burner was outta the boiler. Install the burner and flop... everything went to poop!

I have read more crap on the Internet! It's akin to a public toilet, IMHO. One must really know the source of the information to determine the factuality of any information. I trust you guys. If some fool would post dies-information here it would be challenged immediately. I know that……

I have read more "crap" about Roundhouse Engineering on the Internet. When I go to the horses mouth (so-to-speak) things change quickly. Roundhouse stuff works - period! If there is a problem they fix it! The quality is excellent. Their detail is the only minus - but I'm not a rivet counter, not an issue with me. This Cheddar is a fine little engine, if I get it running. Stuart stuff is excellent, just too pricey. Me thinks Stuart has an ego problem. A little condescending too, IMHO. $214 USD for a fuel tank – please!

Gee I got off tack......nuff said. It does boil my oil to read some of the garbage people post on the Internet.

BTW, I run a 70/30 mix in all my Roundhouse engines during the winter because is lights easier.

Best,

Will

WillH

Okay! Several hours of running - well, sorta running. The engine will not generate enough heat to keep the water boiling.

I has a #8 jet installed. The Roundhouse uses a #20. I can't tell but the #20 looks smaller. Is that correct, higher number = smaller jet?

I'm open for suggestions.

Best,

Will

CCairns

Have not really found anything useful on the model steam websites, but if it follows the same pattern as Bray Gas Injectors, then the larger number indicates a bigger bore diameter.

No.8 jet is the most common for Cheddar burners, with No.5 & No.16 being still available as spares also.

DLR

The burner might not be designed for the job (bare with me) In the early days of gas firing, makers were not used to it so whereas some burners could produce plenty of steam others had to be turned up alot higher. If that dont work its a blocked jet, put it on the adapter, smallest hole facing donw and push and the gas blows any blockedge out. Hope this helps

Dan

WillH

I dunno what's wrong. I can see light through the jet, and the hole is bigger than the hole in my #20 jet. The burner simply will not make enough heat to keep the engine running. The fuel tank is ice cold and covered with condensation so there too much gas running out. OR the tank is cooling down too much and not allowing the fuel to vaporize properly. I know getting another burner will be impossible. Contacting Stuart would be a horrid alternative sooooo.....any other suggestions?

The engine will run great down to 5# of pressure... wonderful, but the boiler just can't keep up. If it wasn't for this burner problem it would be a fantastic engine. I read all the reports about no control - well that just ain't so. I have plenty of control, from high speed to a slow crawl.

Also, I discovered too much exhaust condensate water was running back down the stack to the burner. I ran the exhaust out the side the stack, which helps.

I need another burner! Any suggestions!?

Best,

Will

CCairns

Are you still running on Butane only, or have you tried the butane/propane mix?

Certainly Cheddar recommended using a butane/propane mix in the UK, and that is what I've used successfully in 3 of their engines. (2 x Pintails & the Iver).

Unfortunately I'm off again today to work away from home for a few days, but when I return I'll try running my Iver again to see what pressures I get and can maintain with the butane/propane mix. Too much work required on my Tram to get that running at present.

Hopefully steamyjim can advise you of his burning and pressure experiences.

WillH

Chris,

I tried two tanks of 70/30 yesterday afternoon. Same deal! Runs fine but not for long. The boiler pressure just drops to near 0 shortly after I open the throttle.

I need to step back and attack one thing at a time. I'm going to see about getting the valve to stop leaking. Not too sure how I'm going to do that! I may end up building a two valve system for the engine. BTW what does Regner use? Do you know?

Have a safe week!

Best,

Will

steamyjim

steamyjim

Chris-the modification to the cylinders was as follows.

The face plates were really a bit to thick on the early Ivers (my protoype included

) often a lot of steam would build up in the plates and when the steam valve was opened it would shoot of very quickly!

Basicly to solve it they redisigned the faceplates to be thinner

DLR

is there a filter behind the gas jet

WillH

steamyjim,

Think I found one leaky problem. The solider joints on the valve body are leaking badly. Two real bad, one not too bad, and one is fine.

Can you tell me what solder was used for the tube connections from the valve body to the cylinder base? I have some 245C which will take the heat. Is that what Cheddar used? It's not silvered soldered.....

The tube with the worst leak is the one, in the photo, that is at the lower right of the valve body. If you look closely you can just see the break - when hot it really opens up!

Best,

Will

steamyjim

I have to say i think thats a resolder job

Cheddar used silver solder on everything!

WillH

steamyjim,

Humm, I've welded with Arc, MIG and TIG, brazed, silver soldered and plan ole soldered stuff for about 40 years (journeyman millwright). I can tell silver solder from lead solder. Those joints are not silver soldered. I'm just not sure what temperature lead solder they used!

I want to re-solder with as low a temperature as possible so I don't disturb the good joints. Was going to use the frame as a jig so everything remains square. Hate tiny jobs any more...... old eyes!

Best,

Will

syrtismajor

WillH

syrtusmajor,

Yulp, with all my experience and a buck you can get a cup of coffee most anywhere!

I tell ya when it runs it runs great! Good speed control and power with a very nice chuff! Well made little engine. I just got stuck with a hand-me-down which is causing some problems.

BTW, re-soldered the joints, still no joy! Need to look at the burner.

Best,

Will

WillH

Gee fellas,

The leaks are stopped! I now believe it's the cylinders are leaking stream past the pistons.

Does anyone know how to dismantle Cheddar cylinders without causing permanent damage to the cylinders? I would like to repair the things if possible.

Does anyone know where replacement cylinders can be found?

Best,

Will

steamyjim

WillH

steamyjim

Okay, no parts.

How about dismantling the cylinders. How does one go about taking them apart!

Best,

Will

steamyjim

Im sorry i dont know how to take them apart. Not something i have had to do

CCairns

So your Cheddar tram is doing an impression of the SU 251-86 in my Ukraine photos, where all the steam is leaking past the pistons and going straight up the chimney!

Will need to wait till I get home tomorrow, as I'm not sure that you can use the same method as dismantling Mamod loco cylinders. That method requires the cylinder to be constructed with 2 end plates, and I cannot tell from our photos of the Cheddar locos on this forum whether they have 1 or 2 end plates.

Assuming they do have 2 this is how you dismantle the Mamod cylinders. With the cylinders removed from the backing plates, gently tap the piston with a mallet into the cylinder, which will pop the end plate. Taking care not to scratch the inside of the cylinder use a spacer or rod and gently tap the piston the other way to remove that end plate.

This is covered on Page 2 of this posting, but unfortunately I've not updated the links to my photos yet (had a big clean up of photobucket recently). I'll do that on my return home - http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic3495-0-asc-15.php

Not totally sure but these cylinders on ebay look very Cheddar like to me - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-of-mod...PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

WillH

Howdy chris,

I would appreciate if you would check the deal out! I don't want to ruin the cylinders.

My cylinders are one piece - no end cap on the back end. Only the cap at the rod end is removal. How to remove that is my issue!

Yes, this whole deal is beginning to sound like a Russian saga - full of pain and sorrow.

Best,

Will

WillH

For anyone who cares:

The smaller the fuel jet number the larger the hole, ie. bigger the jet! So a # 8 is larger than a #12. So now we know. There now, everyone is an expert!

BTW, a larger jet doesn't make the burner burn hotter either. SIZE DOES MATTER! For full enjoyment it must be just the right size.

Best,

Will

steamyjim

Any progress on this Will?

Garratt100

Accucraft have recently recalled gas tanks for their Garratt as owners were using a butane/propane mix, and at least one tank blew up destroying the loco - their instructions stated only to use butane gas.

I think you'll find that the reason the tank split on the Accucraft Garratt gas tank was because the 'operator' filled the surrounding water jacket with boiling water - that wouldn't have done a tank holding any type of gas any good!
Because of this, all the tanks of the first series of NGG16's were recalled & replaced.

Love this whole thread on the Cheddar stuff though - really wish i'd bought one of the Iver's before Cheddar went bust!

Chris.

CCairns

Sorry for no reply, but I've been busy with other things.

Not been able to run my Iver yet as I've not got enough batteries charged for the Radio Control.

The cylinder end caps would appear to be a push tight fit like the Mamod ones.. I've tried using some sharp edges under these end plates but no success so far. Only other method would be to hold the cylinder in a vice, and then with some sort of puller on the piston rod, try and pull off the end cap. But that sounds a bit rough to me, and my vice is one of those hardened plastic affairs so I've not tried this method.

steamyjim

I'd like to of seen a Cheddar Garratt!