D455 resolution:Thank You, Station500!!!! pg six

Reid · D455 resolution:Thank You, Station500!!!! pg six

Glad I'm dealing with good people. Matthias of Station500 was true to his word: "two to three weeks" for delivery of a new D455.

The engine arrived today, the 21st day since the order.
Wouldn't you know it; luck is luck. I'm out of luck this time.

It looks great. Too bad that it quickly developed a leak as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9agCUxa1ugw
(a semi-private video for forum friends, Matthias B. and for Wilesco)

And it must somehow get repaired or replaced or refunded.
These things happen, but now I am gun-shy of D455 because of that weakening seam.
Should I ask to buy another model instead? It was, at the time,
a decision between D455 and D21. Cost was part of the factor,
but the compact vertical style of the D455 was a plus in my decision,
and so I went with that.

---

D455's oblong seam strikes me now as a potential, future weak spot.
Yet, haven't they been making these boilers for decades now?
Yet, it seems like the Achilles' heel of the thing.

Thermal stresses are opening the joint fast. Therefore I will not steam it again--no fun in this condition. It has been fired only twice.

steamyman

that's no good, mate.

hope someone can fix her for you.

Reid

I'm not worried. These are upright makers and the dealer is well-respected and liked here.

The warranty on Wilesco products is two years.
This was bad out of the box.

I can see why it passed the hydrostatic test at the factory.
There was no leak noticed on the first steaming.

I ran just a short while on the first steaming.
Second steam-up: I had fitted an exhaust hose,
let it get up to moderate steam, far below venting pressure.

By then I noticed water dripping. Next, steam beginning to sheet from the joint.
I watched the joint open further, so I let it cool down whilst I set it up for the video.

Two Esbit tabs put it back to steam to take the video, then I removed the burner to let it cool.

It finishes its career with a whistle of mutual frustration.

So it goes.
No recriminations here.

Reid

ON a happier note, when the box arrived this afternoon
I determined to make a video of the opening!

I really thought for a moment that there had been an error;
not that I don't like brass & black,

in real time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80lj7lE-75w
This video is a keeper so it goes into my public YouTube account, "reidsteam".

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4IeEg2g-rDA"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4IeEg2g-rDA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="700"> </embed> </object>

Reid

And this too is a fact of that front-step scene:
whatever the damned cat does not eat, she does:

1.5 kilos of garden toad

tmuir

Bummer, nothing worse than something faulty out of the box.
Cant watch vids from my work but hope you get it sorted, I'm guessing not in time for Christmas though.

Graham-Jilly

a real bummer mate hope they sort it soon for you

Reid

Ah, thanks. No sympathies needed, really.

I refuse to be unhappy. It's just a toy needing to be mended.

Let the toad's image express my true feelings inside:

edit: to repair corrupted image link

MooseMan

Reid, I've had my D45 for 29 years, steamed it 100s of times, never a problem - your problem sounds like a nasty case of bad luck to me, so I'm really sorry to hear that. I do hope you'll stick with the vertical though....there's nothing else quite like it on the market, it's just such a great-looking thing, and when it does run well.....poetry in motion.

Mathias will see you right, he's a fine upstanding gentleman.

Wallace

That's a shame Reid, and I am sure it will be sorted

Reid

Thanks, Wallace. Yes, they'll take care of this quickly I'm sure.
I put this to the board because my presence here began as I decided upon and ordered an engine.

You guys have long suffered my droolings, my wanting to have an engine, to share tinkering adventures over here.

Odilon, your video of your durable D45:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9ULZC5tKdU
it's one of the nicest of them all. It works well and looks great;
you've had it since you lived in the Netherlands.

We make our luck, some of it.

I am ready to catch the next ball.

Goal!

Atticman

What bad luck Reid, 21 days ant then a leak.

Still better luck and happy steaming next year.

Reid

Thank you, Atticman.

It is a toy. I'll preoccupy myself doing other things for the new interim:

keying cars, taking candy from babies, kicking cats (one in particular).

I joke, of course. I will eat jellied alcohol. Hic. On toast.

MooseMan

That would certainly lend an extra bit of thrill to the time-honoured New Year's Eve tradition of setting alight one's farts (well this is Cardiff, you know

)

Reid

You're still a Dutch boy. You don't light farts.
You may only create them.

Leave me to set fires. %^)

---

This engine has a wobbly flywheel and a very loose crankshaft bearing: Does not seem to adversely affect the running, however...

...in time I know I'd want to fix-up such little things, for precision's sake.

The wonder to me is, how does Wilesco manage to make these toys as well as they do, of such high quality materials,
to retail at the prices they sell for to end users.

Delivered: I paid much less than list price.
I bought new from a dealer so that I'd have some aid if the machine were defective.

On eBay was a D455, unfired, out of the box, that ended very cheap.
I had passed up on it: unknown history, its boiler looked slanted, like it had been dropped. And, no warranty, of course. So I passed
and was shocked that it sold for so little.

If I am given an opportunity to upgrade, say, D21 looks awfully inviting;

Christmas. Red and black are Christmas colours...yes?

My mood matched the black only for a short while, yesterday evening.

D455 or D21; either, or, is a verry nice cuppa tea.

(Sorry if I've spoiled anyone's page-view. I like large, clear pictures)

Images courtesy of, and knicked from, Ministeam

this posting probably just put everyone right to

bessytractor

Argghh not cool

I'm sure you'll be able to sort it.

Reid

humour time:

bessytractor

LOL!!!

I must say I would dearly love a D21, simply for the water pump. A Mr O style meths burner (or even a mamod loco one) and you could keep it steaming all day long

Alternatively you could just put a water top up valve on an old SP5 or the SP6 but thats not as fun as the pump!

Reid

Our forum's friend, Peter Longfils, demonstrates the D21 in great style,
a must-see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgbpM_UEclM

screenshot, not active, do not click on it

Reid

toxx

... sorry, Reid, that you received a bummer

! I had a leaky D16 (sold her in the meantime), but she was 20 years old when I got her off ebay. Had been bashed about a lot, but still worked for me nicely, though I was rather nervous about the boiler.
Crap that you got a Montagsmodell ...
Hope you get it replaced soon and whichout fuss!
Cheers, mate

johnreid

It is a shame, but things like that do happen

One could spend a lifetime picking at the weak points of one model versus the other. IMHO if one was to get a Vertical, you chose the right one as I think that it is the only commercial Vertical on the market that I would want. The D-21 has a lot of cool features and I am sure that you would never regret having it too. ( get both?

)

The unfortunate part is that even though I believe your dealer is going to take care of you and provide top notch service, you are located so far apart. I was as anxious to see that you got it as you were anxious to get it. What a disappointment.

I bet it goes smoothly, the only bad part is the time it is going to take.

Minor1PJG

Like everyone has said that is bad luck, but you made the right decision to buy from a good dealer

That D21 is nice. I have the Wilesco video too and it has an English voice over but the pictures speak for themselves really.

Lucky you have some other engines to steam in the meantime!!

Mister Occlusion

I'm still contemplating a D21 myself, as I don't have a large bore Wilesco.

It's big, though. Take your D455, lay it down, and imagine a base big enough to wrap around that boiler and an engine unit.

The bearings on my 455 are snug, but the flywheels on both of my modern wilesco's "wobble". They are tight and all, so I believe simply that Wilesco cannot bore a straight hole through a flywheel to save their lives.

Sucks about the 455

It's a decent little engine. But if you want more power and a more stable platform, by all means upgrade to the D21.

.... Or else ask for your money back and give Jensen a call

On another note, I am interested in how their pump is connected up. I assume there is no check valve, so the pump itself has to resist backpressure from the boiler, right?

And, how far in does the inlet line go? Is it intended to be below the water line or above?

I've got a pump that I would like to one day play with, and am wondering how to connect it up...

Reid

A four-in-one reply of thanks to Mister, Minor, John and toxx:

Tom: "Crap that you got a Montagsmodell"
Ah! So you mean, that's not good?
But I asked for it by that name! Was told to insist!

John: "...things like that do happen..."
...to me. But more usually, the good things;
like when the cat doesn't hiss as I pass by.

Minor: "...you made the right decision to buy from a good dealer."
Agreed, and of a good maker too.

Now, the best for for last, each point answered in precision:

Mister: "I am interested in how their pump is connected up."
With tubing mandrel-bent and silver soldered.

"I assume there is no check valve, so the pump itself has to resist backpressure from the boiler, right?"
There is a check valve, a little stainless ball and spring, hidden away near under-tubing mandrel-bent and silver soldered.

"And, how far in does the inlet line go? Is it intended to be below the water line or above?"
The inlet goes in far enough;^)
if the water's low, the pipe is high,
and when it's high, the pipe is low!
and pressure's dealt with well enough
by a little stainless ball and spring
hidden away near under-tubing
mandrel-bent and silver soldered.

"I've got a pump that I would like to one day play with, and am wondering how to connect it up..."
That, sir, is a Wilesco secret
I won't even in my Will divulge.
And if you wonder how I know
of a little stainless ball and spring
hidden away near under-tubing
mandrel-bent and silver soldered?
It's because I made a hole

poem up.

Zupp!

Mister Occlusion

Ah well, so long as you can maintain that boundless optimism.

...check valve on the boiler, then?

IndianaRog

Reid,

Such a bummer...like Odilon I love my D455 and haven't steamed it hundreds...but definitely dozens of times with no problems.

You just got a Friday 4 pm machine unfortunately. Matthias WILL set you right, he's a jewel to work with.

Better luck next time, but I for one would STILL get the D455...it is that great an engine.

Rog

Reid

johnreid

Personally I prefer a horizontal, but I must qualify that statement by stating that Roger rarely if ever gives bad advice. I have to admit that the choice that you have put here would be a tough one to make.

Just one Steam Engine? Heresy!

Reid

I'm at a stage in life where I have to quit collecting stuff.
One must be enough.

Mark my words. Just don't hold me to 'em!

Mister Occlusion

bessytractor

you should have seen the burner I used under my minor 2 as a 8 year old. It was a Mini Clubman ash tray, basically a big completely exposed tray of burning meths that ran the whole length of the boiler, as you can imagine the engine went great guns!

But if it had got spilt, it could have been messy

Fortunately my dad always supervised.

Minor1PJG

Ah the Mini Clubman. A friend had a 1275 GT - until he wrapped it around a tree!!

The D21 looks like the one to go for (if you ask me

)

johnreid

Maybe you should only have one Vertical.
I dont know, if I was to only have one, I think I would go for the Horizontal. If that only one had to be a Wilesco, I would go for a Big Bore unit like that.
I have a D10 and it is fun and all, but it doesnt even touch the Jensens that I have and in fact I think my Mamod SE1A is more fun than the Wilesco. There is a bit of Wilesco bashing that goes on here, and to be honest the smaller units, like my D10 are the reason why. It just isnt built as heavily and is more prone to be in need of maintenance than the Jensen or Mamod.
From all that I read, the larger Wilescos are a different animal and those who have been only exposed to them do not understand why people speak less than favorably of the Wilesco.

Opinion here, from the heart but still just an opinion.

IndianaRog

Reid,

I've only got two proper verticals in a collection of forty something pieces. The first I had was an electrified Empire B-31 vertical...a good 75 years old upon receipt...it's a great engine and I love it dearly.

The second vertical I bought was the flame fired D455, brand new from Matthias 2 years or so ago...it too is a great engine and I love it dearly...recently converted it to run on meths and it's a screamer now. Having seen what Toxx did with his inspires a future effort to do the same with it.

I've had Bing, Fleischmann and Jensen verticals and each has returned from whence it came (eBay)...but the Empire and the D455 are keepers for sure.

I DO understand the desire to have that engine of your 1965 dreams...you should indeed pursue that dream and a horizontal D21 would surely scratch that itch...but get a warranty replacement for your D455...surely there is room for TWO

cheers,
Rog

Reid

Ha, yes, perhaps someday.
But to even get -one- seems to be another decades-long dream.

Matthias wrote to me, and I don't think he has seen this thread
nor does he understand my frustration over the time issue,

johnreid

I think that if it were me, and if I could afford to do so, I would send it off for either repair or replacement, and in the mean time pick up a used engine on Ebay. For example, a Jensen 70 can be purchased for under $80 and it would satisfy your needs while the Wilesco is being sent to and fro. Once you get the Wilesco back, if you truly only want to own only one, sell the Jensen on Ebay and most probably get your money back, having enjoyed the use of it while you were waiting for the 455.

James

Ahh real sorry to hear it Reid mate

Reid

Hi James and Mark,

I'm going to suffer the long lines today to post the engine off to Matthias.

Here's a public video showing the loose flywheel bearing
and the steam leak again.

This is a new video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCUvkH03gdo

Cheers to all, and especially to myself!

refuse to be unhappy

Atticman

Reid, I definately agree with earlier thread, this is a last thing on Friaday machine, and needs REPLACING- no repair will right your concern on this one now.

Agree with John, maybe get a Jensen whilst sorting

The post back should also be refunded I think

Reid

Agreed. I'm at the mercy of Wilesco and of Matthias Brenner of Station500.

I can't fight against their decision.

I've just replied to Matthias' letter printed above.
Have asked him to look though this thread and to explain it all to Wilesco;
after all, this is Wilesco's fault, not Matthias' fault.

And because I do deserve a new, replacement engine,
I might as well pay to upgrade to the D21.

But if I'm locked into this lemon of a D455, and if I have to wait two months more to get it back here,

well, life is too short to make a row over a toy company's product.

As Tom noted on the previous page: Montagsmodell , that's what this engine was and is.
Montagsmodell is the bottom line for Wilesco to address.

Let's see what happens.
I've asked Matthias to consult with Wilesco and get back to me with their mutual decision after Christmas.

Thanks for your support, all of you.

Reid

edits: typo repairs

Atticman

Well if this aint sorted can we cange the thread to read one of these unacceptable things

When you buy new you expect new goods not bads

Mister Occlusion

I'll uncrate mine tonight and check the crank shaft. As I mentioned before, my flywheels are all a bit wobbly, but I've never noted that sort of play with the bearings before.

I agree that engine should be replaced. I certainly would not accept an engine unit like that. It's going to wear out prematurely at the very least.

toxx

... I just checked mine: The flywheel is snug in its bearings (I think, nylon or some such).
Reid, did the selling company offer to carry your shipment costs? The least they could do is take over your postage costs.

Minor1PJG

Nothing other than full replacement will do. You're the customer. You ordered a product and the product's not up to their own usual high standard. That's not your fault, therefore your return postage cost should also, of course, be refunded.

Good luck with this Reid. Wilesco could end up loosing more than just one customer here.

Andy

Sorry to hear that, hope it gets fixed

Reid

When I made my purchase decision on a D455, Ministeam did not have stock of the engine.
I would have ordered from Ministeam otherwise, because
Ministeam is domestic, and so everything is closer to them, and easier to deal with.

Instead, I ordered from the other good-price dealer of the toy, Station500.

I told Matthias of Station500 around the time of the order,
that this purchase would all be documented in a forum thread.
I envisioned good words and results for all concerned.
I am an optimist by nature.

By luck of the draw, I was unlucky and Matthias was unlucky:
I was sent a defective engine.

It had from the box, a crushed chimney cage-top (I fixed that myself).
It has a boiler leak.
It has a loose flywheel bearing (see video link previous page)

The package was mal-addressed, poor copy and paste,
missing the last digit of the ZIP code, "3313", it said.

The postal workers made a guess and sent it on to "33130",
but that is not my local post office. So that made a delay.

Because this is a documentation thread of every aspect of
the article and the transaction, and has been such from the start,
and because I would like to have your opinions and guidances,

here is our latest correspondence:

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From: station500@web.de

To: ReidWelch@netscape.com

Subject: Re: D455 arrived OK, but it has a serious defect...

Date: Wed 12/26/07 03:04 AM

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Hi Reid,

and first Merry Christmas to you and your family.

The Christmas rush is over, also in my store, so please excuse the delay
in reply.

IŽm sorry to hear and see about the trouble with the D455 and IŽm sure
we get this solved.

But before we discuss a solution I would like to say that all my offered
solutions, now and in the past, are the same as they are the correct
rules, if a problem like yours has happened (fortunately, not very
often), and I will not change my way with or without any thread in any
community.

IŽm not sure, perhaps I have misunderstood you, but it I feel a little
bit moved into one direction with your offer to post a thread.....

.

IŽm an honest seller and I will keep the rules.

Solutions:
If there is a problem in such a way you send back the item to me, IŽll
care for the repair and IŽll send the item back to you. ThatŽs the
correct and usual way.

New item:
The main problem with steam engines is, that a damage like yours, can be
recognized first, when the item was heated. But than itŽs used! So you
have bought the item as a new item and so the risk of such a damage is
always there. ItŽs the same, when you buy a mobile phone, a computer, a
car or any other electronic or mechanic item. But therefore you have the
right to get the item repaired for free. If I send again a new D455,
fundamental the same can happen again, beacuse it was not heated before
ot the crack in the soldering happens in transit.

Waiting and delivery time:
If you decided to buy the item from Germany and you know the usual
delivery time, than you know you have to wait three weeks for a delivery
and - nobody would like to have this happen, but it has happened - you
have to send the item back for repair, if there is a fault or a damage.
Waiting is horrible, I fully understand this, but with your decision to
buy from Germany you have also accepted these delivery times.

D455 vs D21:
I fundamental have no problem to exchange the item. If you would have
got the D455 and you see the item and you are asking to exchange it with
a new D21 - no problem from my end.

But when I send the heated D455 to Wilesco for repair, I will not get
any "discount" from Wilesco, when I ask to exchange the heated D455 for
a new D21.
Wilesco will ask, why have the customer decided to buy a D455 and first
after it was heated, than he would like to get a D21 instead of a
D455.......I think a right question.

Therefore I will get back the repaired D455, which I can not sell as
new, only as heated and used with a reduced price. If I offer any other
solution with the D21, all is my offer and I have to pay the balance,
Wilesco is out of this.

Wilesco will repair and test the item and will send it back to me. All
other parts of the business are my part. If I sell a steam engine within
Germany or to the USA, that is my decision.

So what solution do we have with a D21?
When I get back your heated but repaired D455 from Wilesco, I can hope
to get a price on ebay with $120 + shipping. For example on ebay was
sold another used D455 for $132.50 with only $9 shipping within the USA,
so with my shipping ($29) perhaps I will get only $110 or $120. Than I
have sold a new D455 with $180 (+$29) shipping to you, which can be now
sold again for $120......I have a loss of $60 on my end.

If I ship you back the D455, of course I have to pay the same shipping
as for a D21 - $29 - than $60 - $29 is only $31 loss, but what will
happen if I get only $70, $80 or $90 for the heated D455......the loss
is $61 or much higher.....$100????

I think itŽs normal that nobody can exchange a used item for an upgraded
new item, if the used item was repaired and is now in perfect condition,
but can not be sold again as new.

IŽm very interested that you will get a D21 instead of the D455, and
that you are a satisfied customer, but I hope you understand that your
change or the upgrade on the D21 combined with the heated D455 you have
wanted before, must be in a balance between us.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Best regards,
Matthias

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <ReidWelch@netscape.com>
Gesendet: 21.12.07 13:24:26
An: <station500@web.de>
Betreff: Re: D455 arrived OK, but it has a serious defect...

Hello Matthias,

Please view this, and show it to Wilesco also?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCUvkH03gdo

I regret having to wait, wait, wait of course.
I am the innocent customer. To send the toy back to Wilesco
and wait again for repair? If it were possible I would say:

most fair to the customer to swap this engine for another one.

Now, if you were willing to do that, I would be happy with another D455,
but I would be even more happy to pay more to have the D21.

Here is what I am doing for you, to help you look like a Prince,
and to help Wilesco sell products:
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic7687-0-asc-15.php

That thread is being followed by more than one hundred people at this
time.
It's full of promotional words for you and for Wilesco.

If you and Wilesco can make me very happy again: your generosity will be
noted by many people
from around the world.

I have expressed in that thread my desire to have quick resolution, and,
if possible, to upgrade to D21.

TODAY I am posting the engine back to you. I will scan or photograph
the shipping documents
so that you can see that the return is in progress.

What I ask of you for now: Think of my thread, my position, and please
speak to Wilesco
to see if I can't have a NEW engine without defects. There is no huge
hurry for decision;
Christmas is shutting down business for a few days.

But if you and the Company can work for my repair (I have waited so long
just to get this broken engine),
I will continue to promote you and Wilesco in public, as demonstrated by
that thread.

Think about my counteroffer and let me know after Christmas if need be.
I know you are busy. Think about this please.

I would most like to have a D21, but if you insist to send this broken
engine for repair,
and have me wait for many weeks longer for delivery, so be it.
I won't rebel. I will only be unhappy about the way this was done.

Thanks for understanding this was Wilesco's fault, not your fault,
and certainly not my fault.

Keep the customers happy so they will advertise
for you, for free. No one but me has done this much for you already.
Look at my video list for the Arrival of D455. There is a link direct
to your site.
Shall it remain?

Kind regards,

Reid

--- station500@web.de wrote:

From: station500@web.de
To: ReidWelch@netscape.com
Subject: Re: D455 arrived OK, but it has a serious defect...
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:29:44 +0100

Hi Reid,

IŽm deeply sorry to see and hear about the damage you have with the
D455. Of course if I would have noticed this before, I wouldnŽt have
shipped the item, but this can be recognized first after the item is
heated. Fortunately I donŽt have such a complaint very often as it
doesnŽt much sense and fun to send damged items around the world.

Of course you can send back the item and I care for the repair at the
factory and send it back to you.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Best regards,
Matthias

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <ReidWelch@netscape.com>
Gesendet: 20.12.07 04:58:28
An: <station500@web.de>
Betreff: D455 arrived OK, but it has a serious defect...

Dear Matthias,

The engine order arrived this afternoon. Your packing was fine.
I repaired the crushed top of the smokestack. Why would Wilesco rely
upon that delicate cage atop of the stack to restrain the engine in the
box?
Many must get crushed as mine was.

Here is the problem: On the first steam-up, a seam began to leak, and
it is growing worse.
I have steamed through just one box of Esbit. The seam is opening up by
degrees.

Here is video that I just made for you
to show to you, and to the factory and to my friends on my forum only:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9agCUxa1ugw
The leak was first noticed at the bottom. It has now progressed to the
midsection sight glass oblong.

I waited so long to get this engine. Should I mail it back for refund
or replacement now?

It is no fault of yours or mine--it's just one of those things that
happens.

If I were to have to get another engine, it would be this one, or a
step-up to a D-21.
See, I am now afraid of that large, oblong seam, and worry that this can
happen again,
the same sort of failure of the difficult joiint.

Please advise with your gentlest thoughts.
I am broken hearted here. I guess there is no great rush anymore.
I just don't want to wait three weeks, plus three, plus... well, you
know how customers are,
and this was to be my first steam engine toy.

Thanks for your support, Matthias,

Reid

(the order was paid for by Ernest Bennett 3901 Hardie Av. Miami, Fl.
33133, in your records)

--- station500@web.de wrote:

From: station500@web.de
To: ReidWelch@netscape.com
Subject: Re: Yesterday's order of D455, link to a forum page where you
are complimented
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:39:51 +0100

Hi Reid,

as confirmed yesterday, the item will be shipped next two business days
and the usual delivery time is approx. two/three weeks.

This delivery time is based on my experience of shipping items to your
country during the last 6 years. More controls at the airports and in
the customs from time to time and also more parcels in transit during
the Christmas time can cause a delay, which I canŽt estimate.

99.9% of all my shipments arrive in time, but I have to point out that I
canŽt be responsible for a delay which could arise on the postal way.

All my parcels have a German shipping number, but this number will be
changed in your country to a new number of the shipping company from
your country, which I donŽt know, so you canŽt track the parcel with my
German shipping number.

Please let me know if you have further questions or if you are
interested in other items, also such as not listed on ebay yet.

Best regards,
Matthias Brenner

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <ReidWelch@netscape.com>
Gesendet: 28.11.07 23:02:23
An: <station500@web.de>
Betreff: Yesterday's order of D455, link to a forum page where you are
complimented

Hello Mathias,

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about7312.html

Keep me posted on the order, please?

Reid

_____________________________________________________________
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

Reid

As said elsewhere here, I cannot get into a row over a toy model
and a distant dealer.

My health will not permit me to be upset.
If a dealer must keep his rules his way,
and never bow to special circumstances,

so be it.

In a month or two I may have the same engine back:
loose flywheel, smokestack cage-top crushed again (its the box's design to do that)
and, oh: the throttle valve is too loose to hold a throttle setting.

umm.

johnreid

It is sad that a full refund, excepting shipping of course, could not have been offered. I have no doubt that Station 500 is trying very hard to do what they feel is right, but I find it odd that Wilesco will not give him an exchange as opposed to requiring a repair. Being that you had the item for such a short period of time, there should have been some sort of 30 day money back guarantee as most retailers in the US have.
The sad thing is that both you and Station 500 end up being unhappy, no winners in this event. He should voice a complaint to the Factory and request a credit for a new one. I also doubt that the Factory will bother with a repair, I bet they just swap it out for a new one, but I could be wrong.

Reid

addendum: to John above,

Well put. I did not see your input until above. Good points.
Matthias might work this out with Wilesco.

I really don't want a mended engine showing signs of repair.
I don't want delay, who does?

I just wanted a toy engine, fresh and new and right and on time,
undamaged in the making, undamaged in the shipping, and addressed to ZIP code 33133

---------------------------

I can't really afford to say this, but,

It cost me $41 to post the engine back to you by the cheapest way, Matthias.

I have $250 sunk into this machine, but have no machine.

Of course, I would rather have a refund: $250.
What would/could you give me for a refund at this point, sir?

$209? $100? $0?

---

So, assuming I cannot have my money back, in full or in part,
I must wait for a Montagsmodell to be mended
by the very factory that made it wrongly in the first place.

Mister Occlusion

Well, this is a shot of cold water in the face.

I must remember your odyssey the next time that I try to shave a few dollars from my bottom line (I know you didn't buy from Station500 to save money, but *I* did...).

Did your throttle slip during running? I know those plastic ones feel very loose, but mine stays fast under steam. They're cheap and ugly, but on the other hand the old riveted metal ones work loose and leak too, needing a smack with hammer and punch to put them right.

johnreid

The last time I ordered something from overseas just to save a few dollars backfired on me. I bought a piece of electronics from Germany, I was so proud of myself because I saved something like $45 over what an American dealer charged. It arrived, was what I wanted, but about a week later was a bill from Customs. I had to pay $90 to Customs. Lesson learned.
I still think that a refund should be offered, although many places do charge a 10% restocking fee, I never liked that but it does happen from time to time. The sad thing is that once shipping is figured, oour friend Reid is out a good percentage of what a new one would cost in the US.
Did you use a Credit Card? Often there is some protection for the consumer there.

Reid

Reid

I will request here that if I am to have the same engine again, please tell Willesco to see:

-the boiler not leak.
-there be no signs of repair (scratched paint on the bottom plate, etc)

-that a true-running flywheel be fitted

- and, please, that its bearing-bushing be made a good fit in the casting, not loose, as is seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCUvkH03gdo

-please see that the throttle valve is given sufficient friction, similar to the whistle's valve?
(oh, btw, the whistle's bell-halves were bent far from alignment; it could not whistle. I fixed that myself, so not a big problem).

These are my requests, and they are not demands.
I have no rights to demand a thing. PayPal does not intercede in such matters as this,
nor would I ask for that sort of "help".

This is a matter for Matthias and Wilesco to handle as they prefer to do, for it must be routine and common,
German quality control being what it is these days. Slim profit margins are presumed. It is not an easy business.

I will never own a D21 now, pretty sure of that, not as things are going....

johnreid

Next question, did you have the D455 for more than 7 days? I notice that all of his auctions state that returns are accepted for 7 day after you get the item. Just curious.

Reid

Reid

Enough complaining from me for now.

A humour break: The package address lacked the proper ZIP code;
it had "3313" for a ZIP code.

In result it was routed by the Post Office to 33130 instead of 33133.

HERE is what 33130 is about: the dregs of all of Miami

Wallace

Reid, I know Station 500 has a relatively good history here, but I am very sorry to read of the service.

Here in oz, refunds/returns are simple.
It's along the lines of.....

If a item is faulty or does not do the job it is meant to do, then you get a refund.

Goods being faulty are easily exchanged here. Whether it be Kmart, or a small independent retailer.

As a very simple example, I bought a TV a bit over a year ago. Within 6months it failed. Took it back, with receipt to Kmart, and got my money back.
The same happened to my Dad with a Whippersnipper (Weedeater). Despite being used, he got his money back

With Christmas just passed, there were many warnings on TV from Consumer Affairs, about returns and such.
One clearly stated, that buying off ebay can be a risk. However, if it is a shop, or a registered business on ebay, from which you are purchasing, they are still legally binded by laws. The laws being different in each country. They also warned that following it up internationally could be a hassled.

A mate of mine owns a Autoshop. Anything he sells, which turn out to be faulty, are exchanged/refunded, at NO cost to the customer. It's an issue between him and the supplier. Usually the supplier (in this case Wilesco, Mathias being the retailer) wears the cost, not the retailer.

I fail to see why, if Mathias has a registered business, he cannot claim the losses through Wilesco.

I think it is terrible mate, and really feel for you.

EDIT

I just called my mate in the autoshop to confirm. He is a outlet for American Autos/Rare Spares, which sell just about any part you can think of for Early GM/Chev, Ford, Mopar etc.

He used this as an example.

I buy are harmonic balancer for a Chev engine. He rings up Rare spares, and it comes here in 3 days from Sydney.
I take it home, fit it, and it fails.
I take it back to him, he returns it to Sydney, no cost to him or me, only to the supplier, and they send a new one.

This will be the case if it happened straight away, or under warranty. He also mentioned this is the case with all the stock in his shop, regardless of where it comes from. Sometimes it isn't worth it, ie a cheap part, the retailer just writes it off and foots the bill.

Anything in his shop on the discount table, and damaged, is there because it's not worth returning to supplier after a customer has returned it, or it has been damaged in the shop.

Mister Occlusion

the return for refurb is something that rubs me raw too.

One teacher bought a new Dell Axim. The screen was awful from the start.

She RMA'd it and was sent back a refurb.

So, she pays full price for a new piece of (defective) equipment and in return gets something used that would otherwise be sold at a cut rate through a discount outlet like Tigerdirect as a factory refurb.

Now, that to me smacks of a bait-n-switch confidence game. But that's how the tech business, at least, works.

It's not Right, Just, or Fair, and there's pretty much eff-all that can be done about it other than my telling her (needlessly) to not buy from Dell again..

... Hmmm... my whistle is also tighter than the steam line valve. The regulator is loose enough that I could probably shift it by blowing on it, but it did seal up nice under pressure. As to the whistle... The little dome whistles are uninspiring at least, and ear splitting at worst. I replaced mine with a D20/D22 style whistle, with the help of an M5/M6 adapter (but have not fired it since doing so).

As far as toy steam whistles go, I like the Mamod's best (old and new style). Jensen's are okay if you don't blow them wide open (only the dog can hear it then, and he hates it). And I rather like the Wilesco pull chain one (D20 again).

I'm rambling...

flywheel61

Bad luck reid, after all the positves towards Matthias, I've got to sadly say that I also got a bum D141 from station500 & ended up having to fix it myself. The engine frame was rivetted at such an angle to the boiler that the small drive band kept shooting off the flywheel.

I was never offered a replacement, and even got another member to translate my problem from English into German, in case there was a difference in communication. I manage to fix it myself by jacking up the engine frame with shims which did solve the problem. Matthias also sent me a free set of small and large drive bands as compensation, but the engine being faulty in the first place leaves a bit of a bad taste in your mouth.

I also found that the box with the engine was unsuitable for international shipping. The box and engine were placed inside a much stronger and larger box but there was no packing in between the two boxes with at least 10cm (4") either side and even more at the top. So the engine and original box were left to tumble around in the outer box

Some members may remember my bringing the problem to the attention of the forum a few months ago. As this is now the secoond time that a replacement engine has not been offered I think it may be time for a revaluation of his services and a cautionary warning be raised.

I can't help wondering, with his very cheap prices, whether some of the specials may be factory seconds

Reid, I sincerely hope that he changes his mind and you get yours replaced with what every you decide.

Cheers

Chris

johnreid

I would be in contact with Wilesco directly by now, I can not see how they would want to have their reputation ruined. I would explain that S500 has been polite, but is not able to handle the situation satisfactorily. I think that either a refund or exchange ( for an identical item ) should be made. IF this person is a business and not just an individual it is the cost of doing business, if it is an individual, he should clearly state that there are no returns. So far, I am not impressed with any new Wilesco products that I have seen, this only makes the case.
I do beg you that if this ends up being to your satisfaction that you post that too.

Reid

Welcoming now, Matthias Brenner, prop. of Station500.

Matthias, thank you for joining in here. Welcome!

An administrator must manually activate every new account.
If your account is not working yet soon it will be active.

Thank you for speaking here. Very glad to see you.

James

I activated him now

Welcome to the forum!

Reid

While I wait for Station500 to sort this matter out with Wilesco....

I had never noted this warranty service promise before, see the image below;

they pay for the return postage of a defective model.
I never noted this feature before because I didn't buy from his eBay store nor auction,
I bought through direct contact with Station500 via email.

It cost me $41 to mail the defective D455 back to Germany.
I am tickled to learn that I will be compensated for that cost of return postage.

I hope, still, that I can upgrade to a D21, if that can possibly be worked out by Station500 working with Wilesco.

If the factory does right by Station500 they will take back the defective engine, period.
Then Station500 is quite free and able to sell me a D21, applying my credit to the balance due.

I would very much like a D21 rather than a D455.

Here is a shrunken screenshot, a page-portion from one of Station500's many ongoing eBay auctions:

Here is a link to the Station500 eBay store:
http://stores.ebay.com/station500-toys-and-more

to Matthias!

Minor1PJG

Well it all looks like good news for you, and quite frankly just as it should be.

You bought a new product, which turned out to be faulty at the point of manufacture therefore this is a Wilesco issue and no-one elses. Neither you nor Station500 should suffer any financial loss as this must be fully covered by Wilesco.

johnreid

Wow! almost 6000 feedback and only two negatives, and those were people that were what looks like problems with the Postal system. I have to say that seems better than one could wish for. I am sure that your problems will get worked out, things like this often do require a lot of communication and sadly time.
I am still of the thought that if Station500 doesnt give you an exchange, that the factory will.

toxx

... that's great, Reid! I'm sure this will come out nicely to your satisfaction. The real pain of course that you'll have to wait so long.
Cheers, Tom

Reid

Thanks for the cheers, guys! Am sure that Matthias can and will work this out.
You see how the weather goes, from grey to blue, just like that?

This all can be, and should be, good for Wilesco too!
It's good all round. We wait now whilst Matthias applies steam oil to the Joint.

station500

Hi again Reid,

and thanks for posting the problem into the forum, so I think it´s ok to give you reply this way. It´s unusual for me, as I thought a forum is needed to get tips or help and not to communicate with each other

.

I think the problem with the D455 can be solved and it´s a problem which can arise with every product, so I will take the FACTS and RULES we have.

You have emailed me on 11.26. regarding the D455, we have discussed the details and the item was than sent on 11.30..
It was not paid from you and also not shipped to you, it was sent to and paid from another person, Mr. Bennett. I don´t know Mr. Bennett, Mr. Bennett has never sent an email, so it was a risk for me to send the item to a person, who hasn´t contacted me before. I don´t know whether any other seller would do this.

I also didn´t know that you wanted to order the D455 from your local dealer first, and because the item was not in stock there, than you have decided to buy from another source, as you have posted in the forum.
In a previous email to me you have explained other reasons, why you haven´t ordered at your local dealer as you know....the stock was not the reason in that email!

You have than received the item as confirmed by email on 12.20. in time.

Please accept my apologize at this point for my typing error with the ZIP code, but the usual delivery time is 2-3 weeks, so there was no hard delay because of this, perhaps one or two days.

Now we have the trouble with the D455. Which are the options?
I have written you my suggestions, but you have posted: "This policy you have is not a good policy."
If there is an item damaged as yours, every seller in Germany may first repair (care for a repair) the item without any expenses for the buyer. This was offered!

Again: You can send back the item to me and I´ll pay your shipping expenses. I will send the item back to Wilesco and discuss the damages as usual. So if Wilesco decide to exchange the item with a new one, you will get the exchanged one. If they repair the item, than I´ll send the repaired one. I will sent back the exchanged or repaired engine also for free. You will get back a perfect D455 and you will have no further cost.

Finally I can offer you a refund of your payment, also kind of our policy. But my impression was, that you would like to have an engine. Therefore I have offered the repair of the D455 and not the refund.

The basic order was the order of the D455, now there is a problem with the D455 and I will solve the problem with the D455.

So please let me know, why or where do I have a "bad" policy?

What is your wish:
Now you prefer the D21 instead of a D455. Of course if Wilesco will not repair but exchange the item into a new one, we have no discussion to upgrade the New D455 to a New D21.
I also hope we can go this way, and I do my best to get this solved with a D21, but this is not my decision finally.

I have also already written in a previous email, that I´m interested that you will get a D21 and have asked about your opinion, how we can handle this, if Wilesco will NOT exchange the item and I have to take back a used D455 to offer a new D21. But I haven´t got a reply or your opinion to this.

Once again, I´m interested that you get the engine you would like to have, but - to understand your decision better - please could you let me know why you have decided to get a D455 first from your local dealer, than you wanted and purchased the D455 from me, and after a waiting of three weeks for the usual delivery you have heated the D455 and the next day you have changed your mind to a D21. I´m only interested to understand this change.

The D21 is a complete different engine compared with the D455. If you would like to get a D21 instead of a D18 or D20, I would understand this more. And there was also no further question about a possible upgrade during the delivery time or before you have heated the D455.

Refund of shipping expenses:
You write you have already sent back the item with the cost of $41 as I have seen in the forum.
I think it´s usual that the buyer contacts the seller to let him know, that the item was sent back and the cost. Than the seller can refund the shipping expenses.
But I haven´t got any email from you that the item was shipped, no copy of a receipt, also no word how I can refund you the expenses. Do I always have to read the forum now, or could you please let me know your steps by email directly? I prefer the second option.

I´m ready to refund the $41 through PayPal. But than the refund will be sent to Mr. Bennett and not to you. I have mentioned, I don´t know Mr. Bennett, so I don´t know whether this is ok or not.
I can refund any shipping expenses first when I get more details from you, so you should let me now how the shipping refund can be made.

Suggestion:
Here again my suggestion as above: I´ll let you know, when the D455 has arrived, I will send the engine to Wilesco (will need 1 day within Germany) and will ask Wilesco after they have double checked the engine about the damages and the kind of the solution and let you know this.

I will refund the $41 shipping expenses asap, when I know - BY EMAIL - the way to do this - PayPal is the easiest in my opinion.

Best regards,
Matthias

tmuir

Hi Matthias.
I hope for all concerned you get this sorted but you are right that the public forum is not the best way to discuss refunds repairs etc but you were due a right of reply.

I hope you decide to stay and post on the forum as you being a dealer would have a lot more engines pass through your hands than most of us ever would and it could be good to have someone of your knowledge here.

SO Welcome to the forum and feel free to put an advert to your shop in the useful links section.

johnreid

Welcome aboard Matthias, I hope that you can return here often. As usual there are always all kinds of circumstances that are unknown, I am confident that all will come to the satisfaction of all.

Reid

Hello, Matthias!

Thank you for the comprehensive input.

Reid

From: station500@web.de

To: ReidWelch@netscape.com

Subject: Re: Did you get the D455 return OK?

Date: Wed 01/09/08 10:50 AM

Reid,

I have just sent the refund as promised in the amount of $209.

IŽm sorry to hear that your father is not in good healt, but I see no
reason to be sick about the $209.....

The refund was promised so it was done after the item was received.

Regarding your last email "More benefit--good publicity"....IŽll let you
know when I will sell one engine more because of the threads in the
forum. Until today, I havenŽt got any email or request from a forum
member.....

So I think you should post another thread how fast you have got the
shipping refund and how fast you have got the refund of $209.

I donŽt think that the other sellers are working in that way.....

Regards,
Matthias

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <ReidWelch@netscape.com>
Gesendet: 09.01.08 16:17:28
An: <station500@web.de>
Betreff: Re: Did you get the D455 return OK?

I hope we can have the refund. My father is sick about this matter.
He is 77 years old and not in good health. He asked me the other day
to write you that letter of inquiry because he is sick with worry that
his money is lost.
I know that even though I insured the package, he cannot stand any more
anxiety or wait
to get some sort of insurance settlement from the Post Office here--it
would take months.
So I hope you have the package and I hope it survived the return process
and I hope this
all can be settled quickly for the sake of my nerved and my step-dad's
fragile health.

Let me know by an email when you've seen fit to issue the refund to his
PayPal?
Thanks Matthias,

Reid

--- station500@web.de wrote:

From: station500@web.de
To: ReidWelch@netscape.com
Subject: Re: Did you get the D455 return OK?
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:41:45 +0100

Hi Reid,

I have note in the mail from the customs, that a parcel is there, so I
assume itŽs yours.

IŽll pick it up tomorrow.

Best regards,
Matthias

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: <ReidWelch@netscape.com>
Gesendet: 06.01.08 23:31:27
An: Matthias <station500@web.de>
Betreff: Did you get the D455 return OK?

Dear Matthias,

Have you received the return of the D455 yet?
Please advise asap. I did send the package with insurance.

Thanks,

Reid

johnreid

Things take more time when shipping International is involved.
I bet that the factory defect ratio is low and this probably was a rare experience for S500.

Alls well that ends well.

Reid

johnreid

Well, it looks like he is offering to refund it. It is all up to you from there.
It is sad for all parties involved as I doubt that either side was at fault, just one of those things.
Now it is behind you, any idea as to when the new one is coming?

Note to Matthias, if I was in the market for a new Wilesco and was considering ordering from overseas, you wold be on my list of potential vendors.

Atticman

Note to Matthias-

Welcome to the Forum, there are a few posts all positive as far as I can see about your group. I hope you stick around, any input on steam toys from experts such as yourself is most welcome and appreciated.

I dont think Reids problems will particularly put us off your company, such faults are the responsibility of the manufacturer.

station500 · D455 resolution: -ALL- of the money was refunded !!!

Hi Reid,

I know what I have written and promised, but I don´t understand one fundamental behavior of you, which I have also asked in a previous email.

WHY DON`T YOU ASK ME FIRST - BEFORE YOU POST A THREAD?

WHY DO YOU CONFIRM TO THE FORUM, THAT THE FIRST REFUND WAS RECEIVED, AND NOT TO ME?

It´s not my job and also not the usual way to get this information through the forum.

I would like to get a confirmation, that a refund was received from my customer, from you!

I have offered the refund of the $41 AND of the $209, so I will also pay it.

BUT if you pay me $230 through PayPal for the D455 (with some acccessories), than I can not refund $250 with this payment, I have to split it.

Therefore I have refunded the bigger amount of $209 from your order and PayPal payment first.

AND I was waiting on a reply, whether all was received ok. But instead of a reply to me, you have to posted another thread......

If I would send the second part of the refund in the amount of $41 - PayPal fees are 3.3% - you would "only" get $39.64.

Therefore I have just sent $43, so you will get roughly $41.50. I hope there is no further balance.

A forum like this is a great thing to share opinions and to get help, but it shouldn´t replace the communication between buyer and seller.

Regards,
Matthias

Cranko

Hi Matthias , welcome to the forum from New Zealand . I hope a satisfactory arrangement is agreed upon between you

D455 resolution:Thank You, Station500!!!! pg six

D455 resolution: -ALL- of the money was refunded !!!