| Archive for The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum The Original Unofficial Toy Steam Forum Established 2006 The biggest, most popular steam forum around! Accept NO imitations! We have a growing community of regular posting members who chat about all aspects of toy and model steam. |
| Reid |
Firebox Chats: silent video overview, page 11Firebox Chatsnot to be misconstrued as any sort of copy of 
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| Reid |
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| Nick |
What are your plans for reducing the vibration? | ||||||||
| Reid |
Those forces remain, though, and are generally damped in engineering by adding mass or stiffness or both, unless the design allows for a floating mount--which is good, but dissipates some small amount of power in the mountings, and that's no problem for, say auto engines with their great surplus of power potential. The undersized model engine, put to work at its maximum levels, may benefit by disallowing as much of the vibration -effects- as possible. I put the engine on the crumpled towels to show the extreme effects of a floating mount--to demonstrate the effect of critical resonances. Some power can be saved by constraining these imbalance forces. Even in a small engine, the power costs of imbalance are huge at higher speeds; in fact, it is imbalance (again: inherent) that most-limits the speed of our toy and model engines. I will save a bit of power by stiffening the engine's mounts as can be done by practical means, to be seen in the next video, ready in a couple of hours from now. WHY should I bother to tweak the engine more and more? There are two ways to obtain the most from a limited resource: brute force additions, but this is not an option available to me here; I can't increase boiler pressure nor steam supply of the present engine, nor do I want to depart from its general design (pot boiler, small heating surface). So what remains is to optimize the mechanical efficiency of the Wilesco engine The first order of business was to perfect the bearings (done already) and also to stiffen the engine base and even the bed plate; unitize the two. A great power loss remains unresolved--the worst vex of all: the Wilesco power piston and piston valve are far from steam tight. We often chase down and bemoan visible steam leaks. We know these cost power and run-time due to waste of steam pressure and steam itself. However, poor pressure retention in the steam chest is as relatively costly of power to the steam engine as loss of compression is to an internal combustion engine: leaky pistons and valves cause an engine that won't pull so well--torque is thrown away--speed, power under load is lost. Steam is wasted in direct proportion to the leakage in the steam chest. I do not have at present any proposed cure for this engine's less than wonderful steam chest seals. That will have to wait for some other day or month from now, and I don't know how much seal improvement can be gained. Think: o-rings where at present  there are none.
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| Reid |
-an improvement in the cloth bushing technique
-the engine races unloaded at thousands of unsafe rpm -and by luck nothing breaks |
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| Reid |
-reinforcing the tinny base of the engine against flexure
-epoxy isn't ugly if you can't see it in service -making added attachment points without visible means of support (hint to the jobless reid) -unitizing for added stiffness to save an iota of limited power -capturing nuts to make assembly easier -a promise to try vacuum condensation to gain added power without increased steam pressure or steam consumption -general blather (should be playable shortly although the video runs too longly) |
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| Bubba |
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| johnreid |
I had a D10 that had a terrible case of the shimmies and shakes, a few washers at the right places and the performance improved tenfold. My D5 seems to have been assembled properly and has very little if any vibration. | ||||||||
| Reid |
Hi Bubba,
The engine isn't blueprinted in any way. I've spun the flywheel alone with compressed air and found it to be in quite good dynamic balance for what it is. The statement about imbalance being inherent is simple fact, John. All these engines generate great imbalance forces; it's the physics of them. Now, if the engine is not run at its critical speed and if the engine is mass-damped, and if the engine has no gross, -correctable- imbalances, we won't see it do the shimmy shake like I got mine to do on the paper towel waddings. There is much on the web to explain the reasons why simple engines make vibration. I took great risk last night, really a terrible risk, when that much unloaded speed was put onto the engine. Am pretty sure it was winding in excess of 5k, but that's just a guess. Such speeds generate inertial forces sufficient to explode pot metal parts with devastating results. I was stupid lucky but knew what I was doing by standing well away from the little bomb. In real service I don't like to speed the engine unloaded, and in fact, all this goosing around is just to make the engine produce the most power to power The Major dynamo--I'm going to get my main kicks lighting things up at night! 
The raccoons will take notice of the Welchesco 's steaming candlepower firepower! Cree!  Cree!
(cree is a brand of super power LED in higher-class torches/flashlights) http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p2dce.htm |
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| johnreid |
Spin the flywheel of a Cast Based Jensen and you will see that there is a big difference. I do not know if you ever had an older Marantz receiver, but I think of spinning the dial on one of those, smoooth. | ||||||||
| Bubba |
It 
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| Reid |
See though, a flywheel has nothing to do with this imbalance. With the con rod and crank disk removed, the compressed air gun spun the flywheel, spun it very fast, a couple of grand at least. There was only minor imbalance. The great shaking of the engine rigged on wadded paper towels owes to the reciprocating single piston most largely. No counterweight or blueprinting or bearing fixture can negate that force. It's just the physics. Looking for documentation of the general principle... |
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| Reid |
Wikipedia, "engine balance",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance quote of two relevant points of fact. Have bolded some key points: Single cylinder engines A single cylinder engine produces three main vibrations. In describing them we will assume that the cylinder is vertical. Firstly, in an engine with no balancing counterweights, there would be an enormous vibration produced by the change in momentum of the piston, connecting rod and crankshaft once every revolution. Nearly all single-cylinder crankshafts incorporate balancing weights to reduce this. While these weights can balance the crankshaft completely, they cannot completely balance the motion of the piston, for two reasons. The first reason is that the balancing weights have horizontal motion as well as vertical motion, so balancing the purely vertical motion of the piston by a crankshaft weight adds a horizontal vibration. The second reason is that, considering now the vertical motion only, the smaller piston end of the connecting rod is closer to the larger crankshaft end of the connecting rod in mid-stroke than it is at the top or bottom of the stroke, because of the connecting-rod's angle. The piston therefore travels faster in the top half of the cylinder than it does in the bottom half, while the motion of the crankshaft weights is sinusoidal. The vertical motion of the piston is therefore not quite the same as that of the balancing weight, so they can't be made to cancel out completely. Secondly, there is a vibration produced by the change in speed and therefore kinetic energy of the piston. The crankshaft will tend to slow down as the piston speeds up and absorbs energy, and to speed up again as the piston gives up energy in slowing down at the top and bottom of the stroke. This vibration has twice the frequency of the first vibration, and absorbing it is one function of the flywheel. (snipped the third paragraph because it does not apply to steam engines) |
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| Reid |
However, these diecast Wilesco flywheels are not machined post-casting. They are squiggly at best; if the runout be less than 1mm you're lucky! Now as for the flex of the thin, stamped engine base: anyone of you with a husky Wilesco, try this "test": Full steam pressure. Brake the flywheel to a stop with your finger on its rim. Now let the flywheel ease on about while you observe the crank-side bearing bracket verily rock to and fro, the base plate being about as stiff as a paper plate under that torque. This is why I put a rebar under the plate, against the plate, and so make it seem to the bearing bracket that it is standing on solid metal. It's solid now. Before it was wobble city, but only under heavy load atypical for this sort of engine; also seen to wobble the flywheel upon sudden acceleration. See, when that bearing standard rocks, so does the flywheel take on a wabble nasty to behold. It's tinplate, a toy, and all we should do is accept that OR take steps to make a little man out of the mickey mouse. 
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| Bubba |
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| Reid |
Hi Bubba,
I'm so quite sure of all I have done here. I drove and maintained my Model T for tens of thousands of miles of sole-use driving. I began studying lubrication theory when I was 18, decades ago (all that theory and practice). I became a full time piano technician in my early twenties, and have worked on thousands of fine pianos. I just know all this stuff so very well, including IC engine crank harmonics which caused the need for harmonic -dampers-, (they are not really "balancers"--that's an unfortunately adopted misnomer). The auto engine lubricates almost entirely on the hydrodynamic principle. The steam engine lubricates entirely on the boundary principle. They are so different in basic ways but one thing in common: A single cylinder IC or steam engine, running at rapid rates, both generate great forces of inherent imbalance that we cannot "balance" out. We can only constrain the force by avoiding what I would humorously term, floppadoodle construction. 
So that's why I'm stiffening my toy engine's foundations as much as can easily be done short of setting it in cement. 
PS: early textbooks are available for free download. All their basic information remains true today. This one is a classic. even though the science has greatly advanced since its publication. http://books.google.com/books?id=...i=IybfR5CFFouuzgS35In1AQ#PPP17,M1 I read all this stuff and just can't get enough, particularly of these older books, well-grounded in practical terms and conditions relatively familiar. |
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| Mister Occlusion |
Don't diss brute force. Sometimes you *do* need more steam.
Regarding the steam leaks. Gil and I both have an interesting variation on the Jensen 20 where the rear of the steam chest is blocked completely, and the front has a sort of compression fitting where an o-ring is clamped over the mouth of the valve opening by means of a bolted-on keeper. Nothing leaks from that valve. I find that the O-ring benefits from the odd drop of oil during a run. Minor condensation escapes from the stuffing box, but that water/oil is also the lubricant for that bearing surface, as well as the bottom of the cross head guide. 
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| Reid |
yay, Mark and Gil! Yes, that's what I must have, some sort of o-ring fitted somehow like that (but it can't be quite like that Jensen too bad for me) for the piston valve's two open ends, and for the power piston's rod, as a packing gland. YES, I don't have no bananas... I mean, I don't have enough steam, ha ha. So working with what I have I want to do like you done done done before, baby. Thanks for the inspiration Mark! Forget the baby part. You're really the lighthouse keeper. Thank you! |
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| Mister Occlusion |
oh... credit goes to Mr J Sr. for this. I don't have the talent for that sort of work, nor even considered it myself.
But I can see how such a thing could be fashioned for a Wilesco, with it's extra long piston valve. The stuffing box would be a bit more interesting, for sure. I wonder if it could be threaded for a union nut sort of thing.. Don't know the proper name, but you know what I mean: like the nut that flared pipe fittings use, but with the o-ring within it. It's going to be interesting to see how you solve this.
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| Bubba |
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| steamyjim |
Very interesting read Reid!
Looks like my D20s going to have to come apart again. Did you get my PM about the pump? What ideas do you have for the seperate condenser? I think you realy need a air pump and a water pump on it. But thats on James Watts you may have other ideas? |
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| Reid |
Hi Bubba, there was no intent to inflate myself as you understand.
I guess because I have thought deeply (though I am no genius) about these things for decades now, my plans are all pretty well set... in mental cement, ha ha. I never meant to sound prickly but I guess that could be taken that way. --- Jim! I forgot to answer your question about the toy water pump. I got it from KidWind (google) for $12.50. I'll be using that pump, I think, as an aquatic volt meter of sorts, for demo purposes! Not mad, am sure. Think: centrifugal pump pushing a column of coloured water up a vertical glass tube, in its way showing the direct result of supplying the pump motor with higher voltage pressure, and then too, the resulting audible effect on the running speed of the steam engine. That little pump draws relatively little power at 1.5V (a D cell will run it for four or five days straight!). But at higher voltages, and if load is imposed (head of water), it will draw considerable current! I wonder how high a water column my D21 will push? ---- the vacuum condenser idea: for my air pump I'll use an old refrigerator compressor's suction side. no water pump is needed really--if I take an old glass bottle for the condenser (because it will resist the vacuum pressure), and sink that in a bucket of cold water, and suck on the cork with the vacuum pump, I think that will allow for a long enough run to demonstrate whether this gains the simple engine any "free" added power. The test will be proved by the load that the engine can drive with comparison between a choked exhaust like factory style, an open exhaust, and a vacuum exhaust. That's the plan up for future trial! Thanks for commenting! --- Am not quick to do things here. I think between bouts of doing nothing at all. Have found use for scrap "brick" that was cut out from the D21 firebox to open it up for public view. See, there is this hole in the side of the base I no longer need.... |
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| Reid |
No way to make that slot disappear, but I can carry the firebox brick theme over to disguise the side, but not the top of the slotted hole; make it all a bit less of a sore thumb. I'll pour tabletop epoxy into the top portion and more or less level it to near to the paint level. The inlay will be enameled with Japan Black, then Perfect Glued to the already installed tin sheet backing/reinforcement. This is not only cosmetic--it already fixes the formerly bendy-weak baseplate so that the Three Pence Pump can operate without flexing the poor bedplate. Such grand plans!
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| Nick |
Great recycling job! 
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| steamyjim |
I shall hopefully get one of those pumps. Would mount it on a base with the same style water tower as on the D20 power plant
The reason i think you'd need a pump on the condenser is to get rid of the condensed water
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| Reid |
Hi Jim, pretty surely a Wilesco feedwater pump will fit a D20, just drill holes and slot for the inlet nipple. The bases must be the same, really.
If the condenser idea is worth doing at all I'll just get a bigger bottle. I mean, to steam through a half gallon of water takes some time. Want to keep it sort of simple, and it would not be possible to pump out the condenser without cutting off the air pump and opening the bottle to outside air, in which case: pouring out the yucky contents is easier than pumping
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| steamyjim |
No, i have a handpump already. Just takes ahes to fill boiler.
Would be a neat accesorie to go with it
Would just be for filling boiler from cold |
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| Reid |
Salvage from the previously butchered D21 firebox finds re-use as disguise to cover the unwanted OEM slot in the Wilesco base: Silent movie |
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| steamyjim |
Looks great Reid!
Anyone got a nackered or cheap D21 I can mod like this 
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| Reid |
Thanks for making me happy, Jim! --- Of interest only to D21 owners: an instructional showing how the feedwater pump assembles, works, fails to work, or works very well indeed (too much) Talking movie |
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| steamyjim |
I didn't mean it like that Reid
Theres a D21 on ebay at the moment
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| steamyjim |
Interesting vid aswell Reid! | ||||||||
| Reid |
 I have been insulted in many ways, many terms in my time, harrumph!
But no-one has ever called me ass-well Reid before. However, it rings true enough, inasmuch as I pump up more and more video tales from the deep end.
More video crap coming soon. You'll all see the D21 run again but very very slowly because I document my navel as I go along! |
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| Nick |
Hey ass-well, I can't wait to see it running again.
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| steamyjim |
Just had a laugh out loud moment there
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| Reid |
Couple of hours ago, between applying coats of japan to the D21's now coal black smokestack...
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| steamyjim |
Another video of crap by ass well
Only joking Reid!
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| Reid |
I just bet you feel like six feet tall. Well, my guys know guys over there as well. There's one bloke in particular we may just put onto your case. His innit ials are MM. So pays me respect or his budgie will cull you. 
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| steamyjim |
Great vid!
Love the spokes
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| Nick |
Reid, I love decorated flywheels.
Thanks for showing how the governor just sits in there.
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| Reid |
Seriously, thanks for even looking at the videos.
I put them up in hope of spurring others to do creative things, free-form thought: things are seldom as inconsequential as they seem. |
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| steamyjim |
The vids certainly are working if thats what you want
My D20 will be having a lot of work done soon
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| Sandman |
Like that flywheel Reid.
Boy, that is real black on red. I look forward to seeing the rubber belt in action. Looks like a sound idea. |
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| Reid |
Do you guys agree that the flywheel rim edge should now be done in black too?
I think it would help justify the black spokes. -- Sandy, a humorous vid of the belt splicing is in processing. A Chinese fellow did the last of the subtitles. Pardon his accent. Video coming up because otherwise I have no life.
Also, the shroud and smokestack second coat of japan are just finished baking. Shall I show a picture? I think I will put a third coat on both, but let's see how they look with just two coats, photographed outside--it is overcast and it is 3PM here. Stand by.... 
_______________ belt splicing for Sandy This belt material is said to run much better (less power loss, less slipping) than steel belt and it is said not to break. And it's cheap. And now that you know, don't waste time with the viddy-O, which goes silly at the finish.
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| Reid |
I have a special thread at Videos for showing the japan process.
I'll apply a third coat to the stack and the shroud now, and try to photograph the process for this thread too. It's very easy to make perfect gloss black with japan black. It's even possible to paint it on a totally wet afternoon as this: it can't "blush". You know, folks, that spray paints in general are not suited to be sprayed in damp weather, nor on very cool days nor on hot days. This stuff, though, can be applied at the kitchen table in any weather, really, unless you've got a roof leak over the work table, lol. The fumes are nothing more than turpentine--pine oil, and not toxic in a closed-window winter home. |
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| toxx |
... great to watch and learn, Reid! I have no Japan Black - but I do have some Red Afghan and a Green Beret, as well as Columbia White Snow lying around somewhere.
I'll be using some vicious super heat black spray paint on little #85's fire box. What does one use to remove the original paint? |
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| Reid |
Hi Tom,
I don't know for sure but I'd wager to remove the Jensen finish with a paint remover as high in methylene chloride content as possible. In the USA, "DAD'S" brand is the hottest of this class of paint stripper. I'd ask the Jensen folks here if I were you. I've never stripped Jensen paint, never seen it in the flesh even. Say, it does look like flesh colour though, lol. ---- Japan Black as it is termed today, was more correctly called back then, simply: Japan I've found several citations in the old literature to this end, example from 1918: 
Point: in those days the pros referred to the finish as japan The public might call it black enamel, but the professionals reserved that word for baked colours only. japan black, black japan = japan This product originated in the USA after the discovery in the late 1880s of the properties of gilsonite. It soon spread to worldwide usage. 1915 trade advert; again, it's termed simply as "japan": 
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| toxx |
... that's fascinating, Reid! I wonder if I could get Japan Black here.
I might just toss the fire box into boiling water with detergent. That's how I used to strip antique trains (tin plate), whose paint jobs were beyond salvation. After a while in the boiling suds, the paint would flake off, leaving only marginal residue, easily brushed off with steel wool. Of course, these were old paints, such as black paint Märklin used up to the 50ies. As a chemical bullet I have 'nitro-thinner', which contains Toluol and Xenical - whatever that may be. 
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| Reid |
The old paints you refer to were linseed oil based, Tom.
Linseed oil is quickly destroyed by the free alkali that might be present in cheap soap. Detergent contains no alkali, so won't have a direct destructive effect on antique paints. To strip antique paints efficiently, a soak in boiling hot drain cleaner of today, the kind that is nothing but sodium hydroxide in water (lye!) is the answer. Your Jensen paint, because it has not been heat-cured yet, may well yield to a soak in strong solvents of the kind that bore it when it was in spray paint form. (Cedge will know, I don't know myself) Methylene chloride, a nasty, carcinogenic solvent, is the main killer for modern paints. Gilsonite, the prime ingredient in japan, is nearly insoluble period once it has been given a high temperature bake. But because it has been compounded with linseed or with turps or both in japan, then the overall coating will yield to hot lye solution (a dangerous process because a splash can blind your eye) My Model T mentor, Steve Coniff, taught me the secret of stripping T paint from fenders and running boards, factory paint: 24 hour boiling in strong lye water. 24 hours. Then it's all off of its own accord. --- Paints: their solvency and then to remove them later on is a rock-scissors-paper game. Gotta know the materials or else it's much manual labor to strip paints. |
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| johnreid |
I know that Roger has done it several times. Tom, you should PM him Tom and ask. | ||||||||
| Reid |
The Learning Curve of the most recent japan black endeavors
Application notes part one: technique part 2: a pitfall part 3 shows the rubbed-down firebox plus how to ensure adhesion of the japan The firebox, which has two coats done over a week ago, was therefore rubbed down to dull with Bon Ami scouring poweder and an electric toothbrush. I realize now that one of the great values of rubbing the coats dull before recoating is to give the varnisher a visual guide: one can see what's been recoated afresh when applying over a dulled surface; not so when laying gloss black upon perfect gloss black: too easy to miss spots. Henceforth I will rub between coats of japan Oral B "Crossaction" $6 electric toothbrush + a slurry of Bon Ami cleanser: rubbed dull to guide the eye for the next coat of japan 
Now the two additional coats are on the firebox. When daylight breaks here I will plop the firebox and stack onto the baseplate and take a photo out of doors in the early light. I can now see after the fourth coat and 350F baking that this japan needs some linseed oil in its mix; the dipentene solvent's gums become brittle after long baking of the successive coats at temperatures above 250F or so. I have two gallons of linseed oil-bearing japan black in stock. I'll begin using that next, when next I strip the firebox and ancillaries and do it all over again. It is all so easy to do that I don't mind. The linseed oil version is even easier to apply and levels even better than the "motor slush" recipe you see here. The only downside is that it offers much less hiding power; a minimum of four coats of oil-bearing japan are required to blacken bare steel. Ford's method was to pigment the first coat of their "elastic black japan" with a few percent of carbon black pigment. This makes a brown-black, ugly looking base coat, but it makes a base to hide and then three coats of unpigmented japan atop that would do the trick. When we take an old Ford T fender (for example), and say we find its original paint seems to be sound, but only needs polishing, well, we find too often that polishing reveals the base coat peeking through the transparent black upper coats, and so the original black level is lost and cannot be regained. Think of japan black as being like a "lake" or "candy" colour: it is, if it bears much oil, quite as transparent per coat as is a film of molasses put on a plate of glass: transparent brown! Yet when the film thickness is built to two or more mils over a dark base coat, total blackout results. Japan black is a light trap (I've said that before elsewhere, earlier in this discourse) Addendum: ROLY is here! Woot! I need to avail of your skills, sir! Answer to your question below: the literature speaks of baking japan to maximum hardness at temperatures as high as 600F / 300C |
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| Roly Williams |
This a great thread Reid. Keep 'em coming. It's usefull to see an expert at work, much better than a dozen books.
I haven't seen Japan for sale for ages. I didn't realise it was still available. I'll have to look out for it. It certainly give a fantastic finish. How is it for withstanding high temperature? As for painting the flywheel rim edges - I'd say no. It's traditionally left bare metal and it would look wrong painted. |
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| Reid |
Hullo, Roly!
a very dull day here at 8:15AM intentional overexposure, available light, to show the black level 
the blanket is dark grey and the background is a dove grey west-facing garage wall three feet behind the engine --- and a more normal exposure, available light, no flash 
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| steamyjim |
Looks brilliant Reid! | ||||||||
| Les |
That is definitely an improvement on the original. 
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| Reid |
You will like this paint. And when rubbed satin it is really, really classy and beautiful. For now it will be in hard gloss. In time I may rub it to a satin glow--it will still stand out from the satin, untrue-black of the D21 baseplate. For now, yes, it's brilliant in gloss and a Black Hole in light-grabbing quality; very hard to photograph! Shining a red laser pen pointer on japan black shows almost no red dot; that is a test I employ to relate black levels of various black paints; none can equal the one-way light trap of japan because all conventional blacks contain particles of pigment which, to some degree or other, scatter some of the light back out of the film, the same was that satinizing a gloss black then causes light scatter. The same sort of light-eating result will be noted when we look into dye baths: no matter the colour of the dye, a true dye bath is a one way path for light, and if the dye particles are fine enough, even a saffron dye bath will appear jet black when we shine light into its depths. Asphaltum and asphalts, being black on the molecular level, behave similarly. These "what makes black" thoughts are my self-derived observations and opinions developed years ago when I made this stuff up from scratch and when I was actually flow-painting my T coupe's body with japan black pumped onto the vertical panels, just like the factory did. Ultimately I gave up that plan because I could not obtain a true cure by air dry alone, nor by low temperature baking of oil-bearing japan. So it went. I put the experimental varnishes away. Now we have opportunity to revive it all for more varied and certainly successful projects: engines parts and such, for this hobby, but also for many other fields. The antique fan collectors' club is large and well-heeled. Almost all the electric fans of the 1900-1925 era were finished in baked enamels--and most usually that was japan. So there is a definite market for this stuff in various fields of collecting and restoration work. |
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| jamespetts |
Looking far better than the garish original - well done! I'd love to see you steam that. | ||||||||
| xlchainsaw |
very interesting paint project. black japan is readily available here in australia its made by feasts and watons in sydney. i havent used it as such but just curse it and the damage it does when modern paints are applied over it. it will be interesting to see how it holds up on a fire box which has been oven baked. it is a very rich black and modern black isnt as black.
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| Reid |
Hi James! Thanks. I still like red though!
Glen! What a help! Have you used that product on metal by any chance? http://www.feastwatson.com.au/WoodstainsBlackJapan.asp It seems to be what we're looking for screenshot, don't click on it 
I'm hoping that is the ticket for AU folks at least! If it brushes, if it levels, if it bodies up and glosses, and if it bakes to hardness, then that's the whole tamale!
I only guess, though, that this is diluted---in wood stain-thinness--it may not be applicable to metal finishes; and they say to overcoat it to "bring out the final colour"... Someone please give it a go and report back? |
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| xlchainsaw |
thats the stuff .the last tin i looked at was $35 au for 500mls. its mainly used today in restoreing furniture and also on older homes on their floors. from what i can remember its quite thin so spraying it on would be my chosen method of application. before spraying i would preheat the metal then bake it. multiple coats would be necessary.
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| Reid |
My gosh, Glen, that is incredibly too expensive for what it is---must be very low demand, low production. Too thin is too thin, very likely,
and to have to spray it? negates the great quality of japan: dip or brush and have none of that usual mess of spraying paint. Les, I forgot to say thanks for the compliment! I have to wait for silicone sealant to cure, locking a plastic funnel in place, before I go further with the reassembly of Watch It (the hand-biting D21, lol). With luck I'll have video of the running engine tomorrow. Am hoping for a lot, a lot of steam/smoke from the black stack, Jack! plastic funnel? wth? (I'll tell more here soon and also describe a scheme yet untried to make the Wilesco governor appear more realistic in its operation, and dead silent too. May not work. But might work. But may not work right at first; nothing worthwhile does.
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| Reid |
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| steamyjim |
Very intersting Reid!!!
Do you mind if i copy all this for my D20? |
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| Reid |
Go to it man!
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| Reid |
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| steamyjim |
Sorry, may sound thick but i don't understand what you did with the govener | ||||||||
| Reid |
I'll get clear close up pictures of where to put the silicone glue.
You'll see if you take off the top cap of a governor, a little hanger clip on which the two weights hang and pivot upon. Fill the hanger clip U sections with silicone glue. It's that simple. It will be a help to true the parts. I used a tiny bit of heat shrink tubing on the threaded top of the shaft to fill the oversized hole of the brass. This centers the brass cap so it has less lateral run-out. The hanger clip's hole was then reamed a bit larger to let it slip with precision over the shrunken shrink tubing collar. The hanger clip was also bedded on a tiny bit of quick-set epoxy putty between its bottom, and the nut's top side, to let me cheat the hanger to sit level, perpendicular to the shaft. Square and level everything for the period of time whilst the glue cures. The brass cap is not glued on. The cap was installed after the glue job was cured. I'll be painting the cap most likely. Its paint was chipped; that is why I stripped it to brass.
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| steamyjim |
I actually look forward to progress on this thread
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| Nick |
Is it running?
Will the funnel get too hot inside there?
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| Reid |
I work so slowly, sorry.
The engine runs on air, and I've left off the cylinder shroud for now as I am -trying to figure out how to non-destructively get into the cylinder and service the piston fitting. I have only to hook up the feed water pump line and do a few cosmetic things later on to call it 'done' for now. Need distilled water (trip to the store) before I can steam. I won't use tap water. Our tap water quickly corrodes and whitens the Wilesco porthole sight glass. For me, the great feature of the Wilescos is a picture window view into the boiler. To be done soon: add more font tubes to the NDB. Will show the engine running its electric light equipment in a day or so. Will make some images of the latest (small) progress. Nick, no worries: the steam exhaust into the stack is simply the standard way the engine comes--same as D20 and a few others do. It's not hot steam and besides, the heat hurts nothing there anyway. Stand by...I'll put up some sort of images in a short while. Thanks for looking in, thanks for asking questions too! |
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| steamyjim |
Looking forward to pics now Reid!!!! | ||||||||
| mogogear |
Nicely done Reid- there is true resistance to the forces at work( play)!! We need to start funding for your "lab" and get you an assistant!! | ||||||||
| Reid |
conversational videos are in upload, just my chatting to myself I think
meanwhile here is the D21 nearly ready to run again, cylinder uncovered, 
The top fittings have yet to be oxidized, but for now they show the contrast of before and after. Unfortunately I spoiled the boiler's finish: had protective masking tape on the boiler. When the tape was peeled off, off came the delicate oxide finish. I will re-do the finish in a new solution and get it right eventually. The re-do of the engine has been planned for ease of future maintenance. I can take the boiler off in five minutes now, without unsoldering or having to bend tabs. It's all very easy to service now. Video in an hour or two, just my blatherings. |
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| steamyjim |
Looks brilliant Reid!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looking forward to more progress |
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| Nick |
I really like that flywheel!
It is so strange being able to see through to the other side of the firebox under the boiler.
I can't wait for the video.
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| steamyjim |
Reid, just a thought...
What about a set of doors or flaps on the firebox covering the holes on the side? I expect it would increase efficiancy but also enable you to veiw the burner when you want to
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| Roly Williams |
I may be able to help there. If it's like the D16 (which it probably is) then the plug in the end of the cylinder is a push fit. I haven't actually done this so I can't guarantee that it will work but, I guess, if you insert a screw into the threaded hole and pull hard, it should come out. However, don't pull so hard that it strips the thread! If that doesn't work, you could try pushing it out with the piston. (If you do accidentally strip the thread then you can always re-tap it a size larger.) There is a convenient sectioned view of a D16 engine here which should give you an idea of what to expect. http://uk.geocities.com/rolywilliams/sectioned_d16.html |
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| Reid |
not that that's a particular sport of mine
However, it is great to have such total access to all of the normally hidden places.
you see, not only is it attractive, especially now with the black surround instead of red, but the NDB is an adjustable flame burner---I know at all times by vision what to expect of output from the engine. And doors: could be done but only at the expense of air to the fire. The atmosphere is only 20% oxygen at best, so in trying to make a complete burn it's hard to do with this kind of fuel and with semi-starved oxygen supply. Imagine the extra heat I'd get "for free" if I wafted some O into the firebox area? That would make an instantly hotter, better fire. Doors, unfortunately, subtract from the fire's presently good combustion. There are no toy steam engines getting, really, as much air as their fires would like to have.
It was your sectioned engine video that has caused me to think about how that cap is fitted--have thought about your excellent video for months now. You'll see in the video below a close-up of the cylinder end. There's no threaded hole on this particular Wilesco engine. I suspicion that the cap is a sort of Welch plug (that's the proper name, no relation). I am guessing that the cap is tapped into the bore, stops on a land, and then it's tapped harder, which expands the flanged side of the plug, locking it to the brass. It should pull out. I'll solder a T-nut to it and make a slide hammer to screw into the T-nut; a project for another time. Thank you Roly, thank you Jim, thank you Nick! |
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| Reid |
he tawks too much
Since the video was filmed three hours ago or so, the rest of the bits have been finished. It's ready to run. Am going out to the store to lay in a supply of distilled wasser. Will run it later today (it will run the same as before but with some stack steam, yippee! And too, tonight I will run some very good LED lamps and photograph the scene by steam lighting plant power. |
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| steamyjim |
It says the video is no longer available 
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| Reid |
or sometimes if the video hasn't finished their processing. This time it was just their server glitching. I already had the video play in the window. Then the next load of this page came that stupid message. It will sort itself soon. --- It's still broken. It did play for me in the window and from the page. I have no idea now what is wrong, but it isn't of my doing. darn. |
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| Nick |
I was able to watch it.
It looked like a long video at first, but ended up being very interesting. It was great to see all of your modifications and how they are "hidden". When you did the "portrait" shot, it showed how much better the firebox is black than red. When it was red, it led my eyes more to the bright firebox, but now when I see it, my eyes are led to that bright red flywheel.
Are you going to fasten the walkway down to prevent vibration? I wouldn't rivet again, but there must be some way to fasten it down that can be quickly removed. Again, I am looking forward to more videos, and they are never too long. Keep on talking too, it helps explain things that wouldn't be noticed in a silent film. |
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| Reid |
Wow, thank you Nick! I feel better for hearing that you were not bored by the length and the yakking.
I wonder why the video quit though. Oh well. At least one person saw it and so you know it was really there while it lasted
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| Nick |
It's still working for me, but you better make another video.
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| steamyjim |
It's working again now Reid!
What can i say another great vid. Don't shorten your vids they realy aren't boring!!!!! Im a bit confused about the boiler mountings. Id like to make mine removable like yours but dont understand the actual mounting bit
I think it looks so much better in black. Looks a lot more industrial and realistic! I love the oxide finish on the boiler but i dont think it will suit my generating plant Is it easily removed back to the chrome?
I shall be looking through all your threads on modding the D21 and pick out what i would like to do to my D20
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| toxx |
... looks great, Reid! Are you really goona use the orginal Wilesco pressure gauge? A smaller one would look neat. Yoi could paint or stain the brass housing to make it fit the boiler.
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| TRAPPERKEEPER |
Its looking good, can't wait for the running test
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| Mister Occlusion |
It's getting there.
Have you thought about leaving the shroud off the cylinder? I know Wilesco uses them to make the engine look bigger , but I find I like my D18, which doesn't come with one, better for the lack of it. There's a bit more to look at, and I can fire a bit of oil on the valve every now and then (which isn't necessary, but why would I hoard steam oil when I've got a quart of it? )
Sucks about the finish. Had I known it would be so thin and brittle I would have saved my money. Caswell should state that it's nowhere near as durable as true steel bluing. Pity you can't really clear coat it... |
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| bessytractor |
I'm really enjoying watching all these videos and seeing your engine develop Reid, keep it up, its providing me with excellent late night entertainment after Alias! | ||||||||
| Reid |
Hi gents!
It's getting there. I had to knock off play for quite a few hours. Nothing works right the first time, or the fourth, don't you know it? The engine was steamed up. The feedwater pump check valves are not seating--dirt or something. So when I finish up feelin disgusted I'll dismount the pump and fixit. Fixit is a word. Yes it is. So is cursit and dammit
Will take this respite and make a new and half-sized (16oz) fuel tank, japan the ends of the can and cover it with nice black grippy material. It will look posh and be non-slip on the tabletop. The stack steams bounteously. So does the air gap between the boiler end and the firebox.
A bit of black felt as a sort of gasket will stop that. The plug-in chimney, as expected, soon pools condensate atop the smokebox. Some sort of water seal needs to be made to channel all of the drip-down back into the smokebox, thence to the funnel drain. Dammit and cursit as I will, nothing gets done till I get my arse into gear. Right now I'm baking the small can in the convection oven to drive its previous contents of white spirit fully out so that I might solder the two nipples needed to this can without exploding the can, as fuel tanks tend to do when we solder such things. Boom. Pictures later when I have things to show. Thanks for following along and laughing if at all possible. Steam clouding out from the smokebox more than the stack top. The steam supply boiling, bubbling down the feedwater hose, into the gallon jug of distilled water. Hissssss. Piddles. Snort! (that last sound came from me). |
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| Reid |
A new and smaller fuel depot: 16oz instead of 32oz; this will be finished tonight.
I see no need for acid core soft solder for this sort of work (acid corrodes metal in time) so I use rosin paste flux and 60/40 rosin core solder The straight pipe is the fuel outlet, the can lays on its flat side. The bent pipe is the air vent. When the can is stood up the fuel flow ceases. To store the can with contents preserved a jumper tube connects the pipes. 
A quick thick coat of japan. The body gets wrapped in grippy black stuff later. 
Yes, this stuff is perfectly meths-proof
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| Reid |
The top and bottom of the can sport one very thick coat of japan black.
The body is covered with grippy, soft touch shelf liner material. The cap was spray painted with Duplicolor DA1600 Gloss Black acrylic enamel: as good a black as you'll find in a can. In the shade all blacks look alike to me 
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| Reid |
In bright light the truth is seen: only japan black makes a true black
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| Reid |
How the NDB fuel depot works to dispense and to store meths
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| Nick |
Great Pics Reid, and I can't wait for the video! | ||||||||
| Reid |
You'll have to wait (who cares anyway?). Everything goes wrong 
The feedwater pump: I went through it last night and made sure it was perfect as pissable (not a typo). It worked for fifteen minutes then let go its o-ring check valve, allowing steam pressure to blow back and out the inlet side. Maybe there's a dead mouse in there More likely: a bit of dirt in the pipe, a shard of rubber from the jumper connection may be under the o-ring.
I did manage to light a LED camping lantern. Not well, but it lit. The supersteam chimney: The junction of the boiler to the smokebox makes for a steam path out. The HUGE volume of exhaust wants out, paths of least resistance favoured. So I sealed that box/boiler gap tight (i thought) for a trial run, using soft felt, quite wet. Well sirs, the seal will have to be done with something else like black silicone rubber (it won't be seen that way in that colour). What happened: Watch It was running along, fire high and bright. Then it started to slow. The rear half dozen font tubes were out of fire, extinguished! A cloud of wet steam issues from the felt-sealed junction, simply putting out the fire. Hokay, so I disconnected the stack steam exhaust and ran the hose to a condensing bucket instead. The engine by this time was not running well due to the feedwater pump's backward leaking. Nothing worthwhile ever works right the first time. And worth-less toy projects are even more apt to mishap. Glum glum gloom and dumb here. I've got burned fingers and a miscreant engine to sort. The fingers will fix themselves. Now about this D21, I can say that the new fuel depot works just grand! Other than that: close but yet so far. Throw the thing in a well. I would, but have no well. Oh well! Well I'd better either fix the details or dig a well well.
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| Nick |
Doesn't sound like much fun, but good luck!
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| toxx |
... don't dig a well, Reid. Of course, a well is a really cool thing to have. In case of steam frustration, I suggest building a small pyramide rather than digging a well.
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| jamespetts |
Ohh, goodness. Sorry to hear about that. Failure, even temporary, is never fun. Had you thought of entirely replacing the Wilesco feed pump with a simple ram pump? | ||||||||
| Reid |
Old English humour (not mine)
Into the well which the plumber built her our Aunt Eliza fell. We must buy a filter. ---- Sometimes even I get tired of endless success and good cheer. So last night I thought to be a wet blanket. It is funny in retrospect how all the little details went so wrong! But now I am off to buy a tube of black silcone rubber. I'll make a steam condensate gasket with that to save the ndb from steam-souses. The boiler will come off again so to make a permanent mounting for its rearmost fastener-tab. I'll re-oxidize the boiler starting tonight. I expect to keep it in a boiling solution of weak oxidizer for at least twelve hours; long and hot to gain a bit more depth of oxide penetration. I'll also grain the boiler metal more deeply this time; graining gives depth to the oxide effect, and it is the depth of the grain, too, that gives much -protection- to the oxide against its rubbing off. You can imagine that even if the oxide is shallow and not firmly attached to the metal, then as the stain is also in the sides and bottoms of fine scratches, then it can't be rubbed off accidentally, say by a wiping cloth, but only pulled off (as I did by error) by adhesive tape or the like, which gets its gum right down into the scratches. That's to say: I will never apply protective tape to the finish again. Nor will I need or want to clear lacquer the finish, though I will oil it I suppose. The sorting of these minor problems, including of the simple ram-type Wilesco pump, begins tonight. The engine won't be down for long this time round, nor I! In closing I utter the refined man's Rebel Yell: Excelsior!
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