| Archive for The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum The Original Unofficial Toy Steam Forum Established 2006 The biggest, most popular steam forum around! Accept NO imitations! We have a growing community of regular posting members who chat about all aspects of toy and model steam. |
| steamyman |
Flying Scotsman- A legend in steam - dvdI just watched this dvd.scenes of York, etc. available from my local library (near ACLR) |
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| johnreid |
Any US footage? | ||||||||||||||||
| steamyman |
a bit. |
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| Andy |
I dis a agree with flying scotmans a legend. There are plenty more engine that are better. Such as the Britannia class and the B1 black five etc. Fying scotman onlt famouse cause she was the last engine to run on the main line. That was only becasue of a 10 year deal that was signed, and the brittish railway banned steam locomtive but the deal stud tight. And anyway every time she goes in for her overhall they have to spent load getting her going again not to mention the outer cylider have beeen metal stitched that many time and the middle cylider not even orignal. i think they should spend all the money they spend on flying scotman on mallard in stead. mallard a true legend | ||||||||||||||||
| johnreid |
It isnt the only legend or maybe even the greatest, but the Locomotive has a bit of history and that is the stuff that legends are made of. And yes last of a breed or whatever is also part of it.
There can be arguments as to where the greatest Steamers were and if there is an example of the greatest. Technologically there were better examples, but I honestly think that Steam left the day to day Mainline operations before the Technology was fully developed. |
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| Andy |
i agree with that steamer lesft before the technollgy was fullt develped, but it steam is still used in power station | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
im with andy on this one its far to overated and because of this i dont like it as much as most engines
aye andy get mallard out there were she belongs instead of being dead inside a musuem Sir Nigel would turn in his grave if he knew his fastest a4 was stuck dead in a museum dont get me wrong the a3s one hell of a loco |
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| SillyBilly |
Oh, ye, and it was the first engine to officialy reach 100mph. Of course they do work on it when it goes out for an overhaul, they trash it to bits, it's had so many overhauls that it's not worth stuffing and mounting it. You'll find that lots of engines have had new cylinders. Why do we need another A4??? There is no point in getting the Mallard going, it's doing a great job where it is at the moment. If they wern't going to spend it on the FS then it'd be better spent on the Single. | ||||||||||||||||
| Mister Occlusion |
...that last comment made me think: steam loco with a nuclear reactor 
Saw some youtube footage the other day of the American "Big Boy". Now there's an impressive machine! |
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| Lewis |
you can never have enough of one class going if it were up to me all of them would be out working how they should be
and also i think they should bring back the 2 a4s from the US (no disrespect intened ) and get them back in steam |
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| SillyBilly |
Why, we have 3 A4's, anymore would make them boring. The Mallard is only the fastest A4 because it was chosen to be, it could just of easily been any of the others built! They want to keep the Mallard in good nick, they don't want to make it in to a replica. Both Mallard and the FS are overated, I'd much prefer a single anyday. | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
Nah it was the best of them all thats why it was choosen others may have been slower by a bit and theres something about mallard when you see it that no other of the a4s have | ||||||||||||||||
| Andy |
what the hell we can never have enough of a class of engine and mallard should be out there doing what she was built for, not been stuffed and mounted. in my eyes it a real shame |
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| SillyBilly |
So if you come to that conclusion Lewis, then it means that some of the others could of gone faster! The only thing that it has compared to the others is a silly plaque on the side, and a legend behind it.
What's the point of pouring money in to other A4s when we could have somthing diffrent. |
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| Andy |
because there should be no static ones, i think mallard deserve it becasue she beat the rest off the world on speed. and she derserve some dinity for that. there are to many engine for display they should be out there steaming, doing what they were built for |
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| SillyBilly |
Come on I shouldn't have to quote myself. |
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| Andy |
cos we should have all the engine running again there one off the only class that servive in reasonal number and all should be allowed to steam together | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
i will be going to york hopefully next year to see the 3 or 4 a4s lined up together shame only 3 of them are steamable
its not just a silly plaque though Mallards boiler |
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| bessytractor |
The NRM wouldn't pay for Mallard, as it gets more money through people coming to see it and making donations. Its an icon of the museum. One of the big problems of people coming to York when Mallard was in steam in the 80s was that it wasn't always there. People could come from as far as Australia, only to find the loco had gone to Marylebone on a railtour. If there was a big "Steam Railway" style fund raising campaign, they MIGHT take notice, but it would be a LOT of cash and time before it ever took to the rails again. But they already have a Gresley pacific they can flog, and thats 4472 AKA the bank managers nightmare (the A3 that creates debate!  )
I do get a little weary with people stating "its not special because such and such a part is not original". You know what? Locos that work, and work HARD are usually cobbled. Take the 7 1/4" black 5 I drive at the Great Cockcrow for example. She is on her THIRD boiler, and her second set of driving wheels. She is in the shops this winter already to have her motion rebushed. All this replacement and shes only 25 years old. To put that into context, an engine thats rarely run, and on its second boiler, was built in 1913. The railway always has her going because she's so darn reliable, and this as you might expect takes its toll. This kind of wear is on a par with a loco that was in service on BR in steam days. No loco ANYWHERE is all original. I'm sure our resident Mamod SL1 bashers will testify to that
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| johnreid |
They all wear out, and as the need for the processes that made them diminishes so does the ability to repair. Maybe the try historic ones should be mothballed so that people in future generations can see one without a bunch of missing parts.
One of my Favorite Locomotives is now on Static display in a museum, but they do on occasion move it a short distance just to keep it within the potential of being operated again. |
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| SillyBilly |
Exactly what I was trying to ay BT!
I'd be a bit scared if it was through the boiler! 
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| Atticman |
Well said, though can get out of hand, someone found a racing bentleys gearstick then built the rest of the car around it then claimed it was an "original" Bentley 
Think they tried to sell it for a million
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| Andy |
BT very truw but she hardly does much work and they have to spend loads getting her going again, black 5 are an amzing engine. and i am glad to see she does what she was designed for. but the scotman i think it just to overated and they should think about there great engine not just one. and i know you got replace bits.
on the roller we have just repined the high presure side and some othere bits off the motion and on the yorkshire 0-6-0 tank engine that got plaenty that still need doing, that new boiler work and it was only built in 1952 the B1 that i have helped that has just had 23 new tubes and the pecket that i spent the day on that had a compilet new iner firbox i think |
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| bessytractor |
exactly John. No one would even consider firing up the original (no wait, there can't be much original in it) Puffing Billy. Instead they built a replica to show it working. |
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| Andy |
flying scotsman is alway going in for a overhall, not saying i don't like her but there are plenty off better engine out there. such as the B1 that does mainline run, goes to north yourshire moor railway and pull train around and that still doesn't have as much money spent on her as flying scotsman. Th B1 has had to have a cylider liner in admitally it was the driver folt (long story a unexperinced firemen was moving it out off way, didn't open cylider drain and blow a big chunk out of the cylider) |
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| bessytractor |
I heard about that. Having run headlong into a wall of water in a cylinder I feel his pain. Flying Scotsman I think IS worth keeping running. Its a great tourist attraction, and we did save it from going overseas and putting it in the NRM. Keeping it running is a better fate than has befallen Mallard, and a better way of spending all our money! But I do agree with you, it is a little bit over rated. Still nice to look at though. On the subject of better than other engines. Flying Scotsman was technologically advanced for her day, and indeed until Bulleid and his pacifics turned up was unrivalled. Workhorse engines like Sir Lamiel, B1s, black 5s, and all that other stuff that wasn't exactly racy stuff are all well and good. But as an example of high tech 1920s locomotive, I feel it very important to have on the railways, as it makes an excellent contrast to everything else. |
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| Lewis |
opps  typo
anyways i know a loco that can out do any locomotive on power The LNER U1 garratt
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| Andy |
i think every engine is worth keeping running and non should be static. i want as much steam running as possible and we should keep her going but imho i rather se mallard going. i think it a shame to have so many engine on static display. and america having 2 of our A4 make me furious they should be over here with the rest of the A4. imho we need to get as many engine going as possible so that people can see what they can do not see what they look like | ||||||||||||||||
| bessytractor |
good man |
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| Andy |
supprised you havn't said about the lms garrets |
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| SillyBilly |
The FS only keeps on going back in for work because it does a lot of work and it didn't really have the greatest overhaul in the first place. I there were no static engines, then there wouldn't be any museums, and everything would be a replica, rather than a re-build. | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
im very gratefull that all of the engine we have today have survived and im happy scotsman was saved just take those defletors and whistle of it and i would like it more
have you erd about green arrow when her ticket expires thats it sees gonna be stuffed and mounted thats what i hatw shes been running all this time and now she will be just left |
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| Lewis |
dont even get me started on them
my second fav type of steam locomotive they are
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| SillyBilly |
Don't like the LMS Garratts one bit, way to big and foreign. | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
they dont look foreign at all not one bit they were big and powerfull more powerfull that an a4 pacific | ||||||||||||||||
| Andy |
wot you been taking silly billy, they are an amzing engine british built and they don't half pack a punch. they are one off LMS finniced engine.
Silly Billy is the only engine you like the FS every other engine you said is boaring |
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| mc_mc |
Interesting thread, maybe you can post up some pictures so we lesser mortals know what you're arguing about? (p.s. I know what Mallard (nice streamlining) and the Flying Scotsman are!) | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
ok hang on and ill show you one of the powerfullest locos in britian | ||||||||||||||||
| Andy |
lewis you forgot the more in potant, bit one of the world best loco | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
this is an lms garratt to you lesser mortal
http://www.old-dalby.com/images/47986%20east%20of%20Melton.gif |
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| mc_mc |
Looks like it's crashed into something else's tender! | ||||||||||||||||
| Andy |
if there are any engine you don't know just p.m me are lewis are just google it |
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| Lewis |
nah its 2 engines in one one tender at the front and one at the back
i just spent 20 quid on a book about these gaints |
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| Andy |
it not designed to butifull it designed to pack a punch and it is bassicly to engine but amzingly well put together. they would modern day diesel up on pulling power. and any way how can you critise works of engineering great like that id like to see them make a better loco |
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| Lewis |
well said mate 2 engines in one equals extreme power more than most a loco and this was made before any of the a4s like mallard and scotsman |
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| mc_mc |
Okay, I suppose I ain't too pretty to look at either.
so tell me why it's so good. Two engines in one is it, does it have two boilers? |
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| SillyBilly |
Really??? (in sarcastic tone) Garratts were designed for foreign countrys, and as far as I'm concerned they can stay out there. I'm not an FS fan! If you want to see exciting stuff then take a peek at photos of the Ffestiniog Railway, where every loco is diffrent, unlike all the A4s, one's enough, money is better spent on more unique locos. Your saying that everything should be in steam, which is totally wrong. |
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| Andy |
it has a bigger boiler, and if you make two really good engine into one then you only need one set off crew to drive and fire it. and the amount they could pull nowt nowday could match it. | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
one huge boiler suplys 4 cylinders technically 2 engines in one and twice the power they were so big they had to have revolving coal bunkers at the bak and the crews could hardley cope fireing the beasts 33 were built in total designed to stop double heading pf coal trains at the time im my opinion a work of engineering art 
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| Andy |
why is it rong every loco should be in steam doing what it was built for can you expand on why every loco shouldn't been in steam |
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| SillyBilly |
Apart from that the engine, is combined in to these 'tenders', thus making it a power unit and it isn't coupled to the power units, it has pivots on main frame, and on both power units. |
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| Lewis |
yes really lad a4 pacific 35,455lb tractive effort lms garratt 45,620 lb dont even get me started on the LNER one that was the most powerfull loco in britian by far at over 70,000 lb tractive effort |
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| SillyBilly |
Beause you've now scraped our entire heritage including the origonal 'Rocket'. |
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| bessytractor |
unfortunately for the Garratts they had serveral major design flaws. These came about because the LMS fell out with Beyer Peacock, and ended up building the Garratts themselves. This rendered the designers with a problem. They had never done something like this before and they used quite a lot of existing parts that were not suited to Garratt use. The result was a loco that had a tendency to fail, and was also extremely heavy on coal. I quote a enginemens autobiography when I talk of these locos. If Beyer had built them they'd have matched up their full potential, but LMS built they were decidedly unfulfilled.
The LNER one was a mess! Two fireman to fire it, and when oil fired, they couldn't go through tunnels without being roasted. To be fair though, it did work properly! |
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| Andy |
i didn't scrap them it the nobs at BR who scrapped them. and that why it more important to keep the one we got steaming. please try and come out with better argument |
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| Lewis |
there weekness was the derby axels boxes as used on the 4f which really gave them problems as well the lner was excelent in my opinion for the times did you read the artile on it in steam railway mag ? how come nobody likes the real gaints of steam 
im the end we all have opinions and i my opinion the garratts were one of the best in freight haulage despite there looks and problems what do you all think of the lms 0-10-0 big bertha ? |
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| SillyBilly |
Yes you are scrapping them, because you'll be replacing old-new components with new components. If you got your hands on the 'Rocket' then there'd be nothing left! |
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| bessytractor |
ummm a good idea at the time! They did try it on a garratt sized freight train, but the way its weight was spread meant the loco could only achieve full adhesion while pushing. Pulling trains pretty much put it on an ice rink! |
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| Lewis |
so what are you saying ? that an a4 is more powerfull than a garratt ?
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| SillyBilly |
That's why I put the sarcastic tone in, it's like saying that the Merddin Emrys is stronger than the Taliesin, which even a dipstick knows. |
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| bessytractor |
we can all dream
no I mean Big Bertha. incidentally did you know it was to be preserved? |
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| SillyBilly |
Sounds like BT's saying that the A4 is more conventional, which it is. |
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| Lewis |
the garratts are more powerfull why does no one get that ? aye i did such a same i never made it apparently the pattern for one of its cylinders has survived |
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| Andy |
yes they would you try and keep every thing orignal. what point off having an engine just to look at when you can have it running do what the designer desined it for |
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| bessytractor |
I have no idea where everyone is getting this idea that Garratts are weaker than A4s! | ||||||||||||||||
| Andy |
they are a wonderfull engine and they are more powerfull and have a certain charm about them |
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| Lewis |
i dunno either ok lets forget that garratts are much more powerfull
big bertha even had 2 boiler which she interchanged with
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| SillyBilly |
We do Lewis, but your not reading the posts correctly! I've got garratts on my doorstep practically! |
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| bessytractor |
the first loco I ever downloaded for MSTS was a garratt (LMS). I put about 200 wagons behind it and it never slipped. Not bad considering the set up was accurate. | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
aye sillybilly narrow gauge beasts love em
aye mate i wish there was one for trainz
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| Andy |
were you download the garret from please come on silly billy you havn't replied to mine yet | ||||||||||||||||
| SillyBilly |
Have you seen the price of MSTS Lewis, you might aswell have it in your stocking! | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
anyways i dont hold a grudges about what any one has said or owt about stuff in the end its merly or own opinions and thats what counts
i enjoy a argument occasionally
anyways cya all |
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| bessytractor |
REPLICA *COUGH* |
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| Andy |
ok lewis seya lad | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
really ? thought it may have been
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| Andy |
even if it was a replica wouldn't you still love to see it i know i would |
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| bessytractor |
nothing beats a bit of 8-to-the-bar thrash |
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| SillyBilly |
Sorry Andy, I've got more important things to do than argue on a Toy Steam forum about the standards of preservation, so I missed your post. But the point remains, that the steam engine need not do what the designer designed it for because the steam era is gone. It's the same as what Tom Rolt said, about there not being enough room for hundreds of preserved railways, and you know what I agree with him, the same applies for enignes. |
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| Andy |
anyway no grudes it was all people view clashing. the world would be boring every had the same views | ||||||||||||||||
| Lewis |
gone but not forgoten
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| SillyBilly |
A good argument does everyone the world of good, it gives you a chance to voice your opinions!
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| SillyBilly |
The same was said when the L&B closed, 'perchance it is not dead'. |
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| Andy |
i agree with you on that |
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| SillyBilly |
Finally, so after 6 pages of typing we managed to agree on somthing !
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| Andy |
i don't half wish the steam era hadn't gone, each loco sligly difrent and full of character not like our modern day diesel they are all the same imho |
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| Andy |
lmao we finally did |
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| mc_mc |
I did try to distract you half way but you carried on arguing regardless All good natured though.
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| Andy |
it just diffrent people view clashing, you learn stuff thow as they tell you thing to back the view and then you tell them something to back your view | ||||||||||||||||
| James |
Look ladies
I reckon they all should come back into steam, and show these eer new shitty things what a train really is. Musteth we argueth? Canneth we loveth?
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| johnreid |
Heres the legend, It is sitting in a museum now, but is moved on a regular basis to keep it where it would be easier to operate later.
I have ridden in the cab of this one several times and it can go FAST. 
not my photo, |
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| James |
A wierd looking loco!!
I'd like a ride on a loco at some point, don't know how I'd go about it though... |
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| johnreid |
Weird? sheesh, its a thing of beauty.
It was Streamlined Steam, fast and dependable. N&W was the last to quit Steam and thus their Locos had a lot of features that were not on others. |
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| MooseMan |
eee that were a right good barney!!
I heard a rumour that redesigned, effective steam locos may come back into service.....anybody know owt about that? |
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| bessytractor |
theres a project called the 5AT project that is trying to create a loco that can maintain a constant speed of 125 mph. It will probably never get built though. I'm sure you know about the new loco build "Tornado", a brand new (I won't say replica because its numbered as a new engine) LNER A2 class. In the states the Iowa state railroad own two Chinese QJ class 2-8-2s which they use on freight trains (coal is cheaper than diesel!). |
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| bessytractor |
no what I meant was "use the pattern to cast new cylinders and build a replica of the loco that works". the pattern is 100% real |
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| Lewis |
its good to have an argument occasionally james
as long as the people dont take things to serious so bessytractor do you know if the pattern exists or not ? for anyone wondering what "big bertha" or "big emma" as it was Known by its crews was, it was a mamoth 4 cylindered 0-10-0 banking engine developed by the midland railway for banking heavy trains up the lickey incline witch is a 1 in 37 gradient apparently one of the patterns for its cylinders survives but i dunno if this is true or not personally it is one of my fav locos and it was going to be preserved but was scrapped 
here are some pics of it http://www.photobydjnorton.com/BigBertha.html |
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| johnreid |
Those two Chinese Locos are basically ALCO design, reverse engineered or whatever. China has stopped the manufacture of steamers, but there still are some in service, but not for long as like the US in the 50s, the Chinese are wanting the metal for other things. | ||||||||||||||||
| bessytractor |
actually the QJ is a rip off and improvement of a Russian class of locos that the Chinese State Railway used for a time. These Russian locos were themselves knock offs of American imports (Alco 2-10-4 things). This means bar frames, boxpox wheels, one piece cast cylinders and smokebox assembly. But yes John, as a basis they are indeed Alco.
Heres a little bit of pointless trivia. China has the worlds newest built service steam loco. This is a JS class 2-8-2 that was built in 2005! At the mo it is residing in a scrap line. |
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| bessytractor |
no idea
it may do, I read an article all about it recently but can't remember the bit about the patterns. |