Is this an Italian Engine?

tmuir · Is this an Italian Engine?

Via my website I was contacted by a person who wanted his engine identified.

This one is a completely new one on me, but it has Italian writing on it. (I think)

Lets see if anyone can ID it.
I actually really like it, its something a bit different.

IndianaRog

No idea what that is Tony, but I have to agree it's a likeable look to it!

At first blush I thought of a dairy milk can!!

Rog

Lozza1

Yes the writting does apear to be Italian.

Looks to be a nice engine too. A rather distinctive styling.

I am wondering if the base doubles as the burner- it looks like it might have a fuel port on one side.

tmuir

Roly Williams

Perhaps STEAMPROPULSION can recognise it.

It does look like the burner is built into the base. I assume that bulge sticking out of the side is a filler / SV? The boiler itself obviously doesn't extend right to the top (as can be seen through the chimney).

STEAMPROPULSION

THE OVAL TAG BEARS THE BUILDER'S NAME: FINOTTI UMBERTO. ABOVE THIS TAG THERE IS ANOTHER ONE STAMPED IN BUT I CANNOT READ IT. I DO NOT THINK THAT IT IS A COMMERCIALLY MADE IN ITALY ENGINE.

tmuir

The other tage read CAP ADRIA 1964. What ever that means

Roly Williams

dorsey

Hello all,

I'm the person who sent tmuir the photos that he graciously posted, and have now joined the forum. I only own two and one half steam engines (included is a partially-completed Stuart 10V). I still found lots of great information here.

The wide, flat bottom is indeed a fuel tank with a central burner. In my opinion, a clever design that serves also as a solid base. That is a tapered spout for liquid fuel. Maybe there was a cork or rubber stopper at one time, because it is non-threaded. The circular cotton wick is still in place in the burner.

One other thing I can add is that when I removed the three bolts that keep the boiler cap in place, I found that it's more of a smoke box than boiler cap because it doesn't seal anything; it just funnels the smoke and heat from the flues out the central chimney.

My guess on the weight is about two or three pounds. It's significantly heavier than my Fleishmann veritical and slightly heavier than the Stuart. It feels like most of the weight is the boiler.

I can't figure out where the water filler is. If you notice the rounded cap protruding from the side opposite the cylinder, it's held in place by a spring-loaded bayonet connection (push in and turn to remove). There's a very small hole in the end, as if this were a pressure relief value. When removed, the spring is held in place at the tank end. Is it possible that there was a check ball there that is now missing? Would this be where I'd fill the boiler? I can post detailed photos if that would help anyone help me.

Thanks to all for commenting on this. I'm going to a local engine show in a few weeks and will bring this along to show the modelers there. I'll continue to add whatever I learn from other sources.

johnreid

It sure is an interesting piece, and welcome to the forum.

Dauntless

a very nice looking engine!

I'm watching this topic with interest too see what information comes along!

Paul.

Lozza1

to the Forum Dorsey.

Your Italian verticle engine is very interesting. I haven't seen anything like it before.

Thank's for making it available for our perusal

I'd love to see more photo's of, what could be, the filler-safety valve-overflow-?

If it is the filler port for the boiler, then it does raise a few questions.

1) would you have to avoid filling the fuel tank base until after filling the boiler so you don't spill fuel when filling the boiler

Seems rather awkward

2) If you have to tip the engine on it's side to fill the boiler - then what is to stop water running out of the steam pipe while you do it? Also seems awkward

3) If it is a safety valve, with a check ball, the ball should be trapped on the engine side of the spring (otherwise the ball would be pushed the wrong way) The ball would then interfere with filling the boiler

HMMMM You have my curiosity going now

dorsey

I couldn't get as close as I'd liked to, but here's a photo of the item in question:

[url]http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00001.JPG
[/url]

This is fuzzy photo with the cap removed:

[url]http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00003.JPG
[/url]

Here's the inside of the cap showing the bayonet pins and vent hole:

[url]http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00004.JPG
[/url]

Finally, a side view showing the bayonet hooks:

[url]http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00005.JPG
[/url]

If I have to tilt the engine on its side to fill, the fuel filler is also on the "high side", but that would still allow water to run out of the steam pipe.

dorsey

I can't get the hang of adding photos. If you want to see the images, try these links:

http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00001.JPG

http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00003.JPG

http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00004.JPG

http://www.regnavigator.com/images/DSC00005.JPG

Lozza1

Is that rust on the spring? If so I wonder where the rust is comming from

Can you get the spring out and see behind it?

dorsey

Yes, it is rust on the spring and also on the inside of the cap. I had a similar thought because there is no rust anywhere else.

Just before I wrote this response, I used a strong light and a magnifying headset to re-examine the spring. I saw what looked like 1/4" of pencil eraser stuck in the bottom of the spring, so I twisted the spring out and cleanly broke off what appears to be a rubber plug of some kind, so that might be the fill hole after all. Frankly, it has to be that because there isn't anywhere else to add water. It seems like an odd arrangement - maybe I'll learn more when I pick the remainder of the plug out of the hole, hopefully without any of the pieces falling into the boiler.

Is there another engine that uses this kind of filler/pressure relief valve that anyone is aware of? I can see how high pressure against the plug would overcome the spring's resistance, and the steam has plenty of space to vent once that happens. Or, this could be a naive repair of some kind because the original parts failed or were lost. I mentioned that the piston and connecting rod are missing, so that would be consistent.

I finally figured out how to post photos (duh), but my camera won't get the kind of close-up detail I need to show these parts.

dorsey

I made a piston and connecting rod assembly, so I only have to fabricate a replacement pressure relief valve and I can fire it up.

I made the piston out of 360 brass and the connecting rod from 5/32" drill rod. It's a beefy assembly, but I like the look. I threaded the piston to the rod using 5BA threads, so that 5/32" diameter left a little shoulder on the rod.

The piston has close to .001 clearance in the cylinder and the connecting rod has .003 TIR runout. I made the journal bearing .005" larger than the 1/8" crankshaft journal diameter to allow for misalignment. Note also the two oil grooves in the piston. They're large enough to fill with graphite string packing if needed, but I think the cylinder oil will be sufficient.

I found that the bearing plate against which the cylinder oscillates (don't know its proper name) was not aligned perpendicular to the crankshaft, so I also tweaked that to within .001". It should seal pretty well now and I probably could have tightened up the rod bearing clearance had I done that first.

There's light, but perceptible, drag when I rotate the assembly by hand, but I think that will disappear after some running.

Bugsy

Great job, Dorsey!
I'm looking forward to seeing it running.

Steve_S

Yes, great job! It's a very interesting engine... it's always good when something a little unusual comes along.

Burnmafingers

Spanish/Portugese engine?
Welcome to the site Dorsey.

tmuir

Cool, I look forward to seeing it running.
I always like seeing old 'dead' engine being brought back to life, especially ones that are a bit different.

dorsey

I'm going to take a little poetic license on the relief valve, and will post photos when it's complete. Thanks for the encouragement.

I almost passed on this because of the missing parts. About five nanoseconds later I realized how dumb that would be and snapped it up.

dorsey

I couldn't wait to complete the relief valve, so I ran it on compressed air and it spun like a top! Very encouraging.

Based on old pieces I removed, I think that the original valve used a mushroom-shaped piece of rubber and the existing spring, but that could have been a replacement for original parts that were lost. I have no way of knowing. Here's a shot of the relief valve components I made:

I bought the o-ring at a hardware store for 79 cents, and a 6-32 brass round head machine screw for 25 cents. Using a lathe, I filed down the screw head so that it fits into the boiler, and also filed off the threads below the screw head so the o-ring will fit better and stay in place when the screw is removed.

I machined the "holder" from alloy 360 brass to fit snugly inside the spring and apply pressure to the o-ring against the boiler. The screw aligns the assembly to the boiler and holds the o-ring in place. Here's a shot of the finished assembly:

The next photo includes a ruler to give the relative size:

I'm ready to rock and tool now! Unless I get other suggestions, I'm going to use denatured alcohol as fuel. When I get it to run a steady speed, I'll report the actual RPM.

Lozza1

Oh well done Dorsey

That looks like a better engineering solution than the original, and not a distructive change iether

Looking forward to a video

dorsey

Well, I finally fired it up and it runs great. I can't get a speed reading because the engine produces so little torque that my Starrett mechanical rev counter causes it to stall. I tried taking a movie of the engine running so I could post it here, but like most such videos, the moving parts are a blur, and show that syncopated, "stop frame"-like motion.

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, there are a couple of basic design flaws. Because of the top flue sheet, the filler had to be on the side opposite the cylinder. If I'm not careful, when I tip the engine over to fill it, water runs out the high pressure tube. I developed a clever way to grasp it with my left hand while filling it with my right so that doesn't happen, but it's not obvious. Also, there is no speed control other than the relief valve. Finally, I had to add an inelegant cork to plug the fuel filler so the alcohol won't evaporate too quickly.

This was a very satisfying project with a happy ending. I'll keep looking for more such opportunities and I'm happy to have found this forum, from which I've learned much. I'll certainly keep coming back for more.

Maybe someday someone else will stumble here and enlighten me/us about the details and history of Finotti Umberto steam engines.