Jensen Oil.

Stilldrillin · Jensen Oil.

I have a Jensen #60, nice condition, boxed etc.

It is to be given as a present, to a young man who hasn`t been born yet.

I`m cleaning/ preparing/ bagging & boxing to as new condition as I can.
I need to top up or refill the oil bottle.

What`s in it now, from Jensen?
It smells "vegetable" not oily, and I have steam oil, engine oil, 3 in 1.

David.

Nick

I don't like using 3 in 1 oil because it yellows.

Rob

if engine oil is the same as machine oil, it might be too thin and just run all over the place. steam oil should be the best.

Griffin

David, I wonder if it is this stuff, but in a smaller package

http://www.jensensteamengines.com/accessories.htm

Stilldrillin

johnreid

I wouldnt want to have any oil for long term storage. If you have Steam oil and the Oil for non steam surfaces, you have it covered.

Stilldrillin

My first thought was to supply with a full oil bottle. (Topped up... With what?).

Or empty & refill, with what?

Or leave it as is, with some used.

Not too much of a brain buster I know, but a topic for discussion.

See ,http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about7063.html&highlight=jensen

Atticman

I would use Steam oil, and try to find a suitable and maybe decorative bottle to put the steam oil for a present together with the engine , then keep this oil in its container still.

There are some nice oil cans around too- just a thought

Nice idea for a present

Dads Christmas presents in his teens are now the basis of my collection

Bogstandard

I would suggest, because it may be many years before it is used, wash the bottle out and put it in the kit. Just before presentation, fill it up with new steam oil.

Two reasons mainly. The first is that steam oil does go 'off'.
The second being, if ever the bottle should leak (too cold or hot storage or just deterioration) you don't want it to damage all the precious contents of the box, or the box itself.

Don't forget to spread around a few silica gel bags, just in case there is still some condensation around.

John

IndianaRog

David, as Griffin pointed out...Jensen engines have a small container of steam oil shipped with every engine. IF that engine has had little to no use...I would be 99.9% sure that the oil included with it was in fact steam oil made by Pennzoil and shipped with the engine when new.

Steam oil can surely be used on the oscillating surfaces of the Jensen 60 as well as all moving parts. Separate oils are sold for this purpose, but steam oil can function fine as an all purpose.

IF any doubt as to what is in that bottle, (must be some or you would not have asked)...dump out the unknown oil and refill it with known steam oil. Wipe the threaded part of the bottle and cap with tissue to remove oil drips, seal the flat cap back on and put the bottle and squeeze spout in a small zip lock bag for long term storage if that is what you are planning.

BTW...excellent choice to lay away a Jensen 60 for a future steamer, I have done the same with the exact same model!!

cheers,
Roger

IndianaRog

I just read the post by Bogstandard...his idea is better than mine, refill a clean bottle with fresh steam oil at the time you give the engine!!

Another thought...IF it did not come with instructions, those can be found on the Jensen website, downloaded and printed off on a computer printer...trim to size and it's like factory new instructions.

cheers,
Rog

Stilldrillin

Thanks for your input, everyone.

Here`s how the thought processes are going, at the moment.

Dad to be loves old Land Rovers, big clocks, mechanical things, hates computers, is a gardener by trade, and loved STIA 2yrs ago.
He has already bought the train set!

Handover is due in February.
So, I am quite sure this engine will have gained a few more hours by the time the little one is big enough to appreciate it.

I will leave the bottle of oil as is.

I will also print a full set of "our" hints & tips on engine running & storage, to supplement the existing factory instructions.

I will supply him fresh (ish) steam oil as & when.

Does that sound common sense?

David.

Reid

Oils. I've a bit of experience with oils.

This is just general information.

Petroleum oils don't much go off in the bottle. An ancient bottle of once-opened oil is liable only to have taken on an "old oil" smell we all know.

3-in-1 brand is aromatic by design. The aromatic distillates admixed in 3-in-1 give that brand some slight solvency power to cut pre-existing, gummed, oxidized oil, including old, gummed, prior applications of itself.

3-in1, like all petroleum oils, will gum in time, due to exposure to the air (oxidation).
3-in-1 and other petroleum oils are PH neutral even as they age, and will not harm metals.

Steam oil is a compound of mostly petroleum oil with an admixture of beef tallow.

Animal fats are very greasy, greasier than any petroleum oil.
They stay on metals very well even at high temperatures and in watery conditions.
Animal and vegetable oils are termed by petroleum chemists as "fixed oils"

"Fixed", meaning that they cannot be distilled, fractionized, as can be the ancient petroleum oils.

Most key point: Because fixed oils are not petroleum oils, they all break down in exposure to the air and become ACIDIC.

The oleic acids released by aging animal fats in particular are corrosive to copper, to zinc, to iron, to steel, etc.

This is why it's safest to use fresh steam oil, and when laying up the device, it is best to flush the cylinder with a non-gumming petroleum type oil.

Non gumming: The synthetic oils sold today for auto engines are not petroleum oils. They have the great good attribute of never gumming.

Synthetic oils are oiler than petroleum oils (rub some on your skin and try to wash it off to see the difference).

For laying-up any machine for a long spell, synthetic oil is best of all for prevention of gummed, -exposed- surfaces.

WD-40 is a mixture of 75% deodorized white spirit (mineral spirits in the USA) and 25% light, decolourized petroleum oil).
WD-40 brand displaces water (water displacer #40 was the catch-name chosen) and leaves a film of thin petro oil, which protects from rust to an extent,
and then this film turns by exposure to the air, into a soft, clear gummy varnish in a short time.
That's how WD-40 works, by design in part, and by the unavoidable nature of petroleum oils in thin film:
they all age and become varnishes; but never do they go acid.
Modern petroleum oils are mostly all compounded with anti-oxidation agents to help forestall the gumming process.
We no longer run straight petroleum oils in modern IC engines, and so our auto engines last longer today.
Modern oils are also buffered with PH stabilizers so they neutralize sulphuric acid accumulating in the crankcase, that comes from sulfur in fuels.

I would keep steam oil fresh indefinitely (if you buy in bulk) by the same means you'd keep bacon grease fresh: freeze it.

There are reams of information about oils and refining and compounding of oil stocks available online today.
The old books contain the literature most germane to our interests here. Google Book Search.

I first read of oil technology in a book I found in the library at the Charleston Navy Base back when I was an 18 year old in '72.
I read that book cover to cover then, "Lubrication Engineering",
was fascinated by the processes, and have kept this topic dear to my mechanical heart of things ever since.

Oy, I know oils. Porpoise oil for watches... I can tell you how "good" that stuff was too:
the bottlenose dolphin, in a past era, as was and is the whale, hunted down for the oil it offers.

This fixed oil was prized as the best sort of watch oil; best because it is so fluid (does not congeal) yet so -greasy-.
The fixed oils were all that were generally used on machinery before the first petroleum oils were refined and sold.

The fixed oils offer the great benefit for the watch and clock maker, of their staying -put-; they don't creep away and leave the pivot dry.
But, if not cleaned off and renewed at least annually, the acid breakdown products corrode the metal parts, particularly brass.

I used it once, fresh stock, decades ago when it was still available.
A put it on the mainspring barrel arbor of a pocket watch: steel working in a brass bushing.

A couple of years later the watch, always laid-away, unused, was inspected. The point where I had oiled with the fixed oil was exuding blue-green verdigris copiously: the acidic result of a fixed oil gone to pot.

Use fresh steam oil. Understand that that black, tarry crap found in boilers that have been oiled by error is probably the end result of cooking beef fat, not the petroleum oil quotient, not unless the boiler was run dry (my deductive reason).

The fixed oil (animal oil or vegetable oil) will gum and go sticky in time: the unclean frying pan as an example.
The animal oil produces more acidic products upon decomposition than does the vegetable oil.

Of the vegetable oils: some offer much better lubrication than others.
Rapeseed ("canola", it's called today) was and is one of the better vegetable oil lubricants.
The oiliest of vegetable oils is castor oil: it's thick and greasy and was once considered the best for enclosed worm gear drives.
It was also the race car driver's best choice, though it had serious down-sides, including that it could not be mixed with petro oil.

The theory of lubrication, how lubrication actually works, is fascinating, and was only gleaned by researchers in the late 1880's.
In proper bearings, which do not exist in miniature engines for the most part,
the lubrication comes not by the "oily" quality of the lube, except at start-up. This pertains to the hydrodynamic theory and fact of lubrication: one of the most beautiful natural laws mechanics ever stumbled upon. By hydrodynamic lubrication, the mechanical world revolves without needing to constantly refit "brasses", and without hot bearings as of yore. Hydrodynamic conditions come by another means altogether than mere oiliness. That said, our toy engines hardly achieve hydrodynamic operating condtions.
Our toy and model engines, and full sized steam engines in general, of the low-speed type, lubricate themselves by "boundary lubrication",
which condition depends entirely on the viscosity, and even more so, on the oiliness of the oil. This, and the fact that tallow stays on steam-washed surfaces, better than straight mineral oil, is why steam oil is a compound of petroleum with admixed animal fat.

Cedge

Toy engines need very little in the way of steam oils. Their tolerances are too large to really require it. Not to say there is no benefit, but you'll have to run one without oil quite a bit to do any significant damage. Jensen has switched from using Pennzoil products in the recent past and I'm still editing references from the site. Hopefully this edit cycle will finish that task.

Before you ask, I do not know which manufacturer Jensen is currently using, nor do I know the specs on the oil. I do know it is designed for use only in toy engines. I wouldn't recommend it, personally, for hand made or small real life engines.

Even with my association with Jensen, I personally use a product called Green Velvet for my own collection. It's probably the best source of small quantities of true high quality steam oil, available to the hobby user.

As you can see.... Jensen loyalty aside, I'll always shoot straight with you, especially when it counts.

Steve

Reid

I'd like to try that Green Velvet stuff sometime.
The very name hints that it is likely a blend of light and heavy petroleum stocks.

The very heavy ends of the distillate range include greenish coloured near-residuals of great tenacity and water resistance.

The stuff they would apply to heavy, exposed gearing; gearing that would have to survive in the open elements, was a product of distillate residuals, and very good for what was needed.

I hope to settle for use on my own toy engine, SAE 50 synthetic oil.
I'll make trials and see how it does in boiling water.

Agree with cedge: the pressures and temperatures and such in our toys are so low that, even car motor oil -can- work if you keep up on it.

The synthetics, being so wash-off resistant, and so much more oily than petroleum oils, are of particular, current interest to myself.

I would like to compare synthetic oil against Green Velvet, over time,
in accelerated aging tests, wash-off tests and such,
just crude experiments that might tell -me- what I want to know.

Synthetics have one PITA downside: they creeeep away from open bearings, even more so than petroleum oils.

I just about bet that Green Velvet is so well engineered as to:
-stay put pretty well
-contain anti-oxidation additives for a long, open-air life.

IndianaRog

I too have been using Green Velvet oils for several years now...they make a specific oil for use in contact with steam and a separate one for non steam/moving part use like bearings and journals.

The guy who runs Green Velvet is a jewel of a man and he formulates all their product. I bought a quart of both steam and journal oil from them and about a year later HE contacts me to say the lot of steam oil from which mine had come was beginning to separate in the container...easy to re-constitute by shaking a bit, but he insisted on sending me another quart at NO charge and post free of his then most current formula. Told me to keep the original and if desired to keep using it, just shake it occasionally.

How many businesses would make such a proactive contact and replacement of stock AND shipping costs!!! I will never buy steam oil from anyone else.

Rog

johnreid

Green Velvet is highly recommended by the guys using Live steam, those you can ride behind, and I know of at least Two Tourist Steam Railroads that use it on 12" = 1 foot Locomotives. The Steam Oil is Amber in color and the Green oil is for lubrication Non Steam surfaces, great stuff it is.
I was given a sample by Roger, and then when a Railfan friend was visiting he saw the bottle, he works with full sized locos and had a good laugh that I was using it on my "Toys". I just told him that my toys were only smaller than his.

Reid

What a great report of ethics seldom seen today!

That separation well-proves that his steam oil contains tallow.
And that is good! These animal oil blends are the gold standard for oiliness.

Just think to flush an engine clean when laying away or you might lose a micron (wink, that's not much) of metal per month.
I am guessing. I don't know exacts. But the steam oil is surely part tallow.

We can see on the other hand, that Wilesco oil and, yeah, Jenson oil are best off without animal oil in their recipe, for reasons of limited shelf life.

Gone-off oil is going to trip up hobbyists otherwise.
So, for the person who knows fresh, they might still use genuine steam oil, and have that bit of extra slipperiness in their lube.

But for me: I hope I find that Castrol Syntec (I have a ton of it on hand, is all) will serve my steam oil needs nicely too.
It's such a little job to wash it fully off your hands; synthetics are just that persistent.

---addendum:

IndianaRog

Reid, I might just take up your suggestion to freeze my quart bottles of both Green Velvet oils as they will likely last me 10 years at the rate I use them...I'm a minimalist with oil, hate it splattering everywhere. I can go quite awhile on a small squeeze bottle of the stuff.

It DOES definitely contain tallow, found that somewhere on his website, at least last time I looked.

Reid

Hi Rog, I don't know any other way to really preserve tallow naturally other than freezing.
It's a good bet that the Green Velvet people have some additive process by which to forestall the decomposition of the animal fat whilst in the drum or bottle for a goodly while.
An inquiry to them will return the best advice; better than mine.

We may presume that home-made by the hobbyist steam oil would not stay fresh for long enough to sit around on a shelf, fresh, for long, not at room temperatures.

---

I'm perusing their site and the more I read (it did not require much reading) the more clear it is that they know their business top to bottom, with vast practical experience as their guide.

Beef tallow seems to be the preferred animal fat.
Why not mutton tallow? We used to grease piano action keybeds with a bit of mutton tallow. Mutton tallow goes waxy.
Beef tallow is soft, and I suppose, relatively well behaved at wet steam temperatures.
Perhaps too it has higher natural oxidation resistance than, say pork fat.

All the full-size steam guys at Harry's Old Engines forums use tallow compounded steam oils.

But, for our toys, if we lubricate copiously, a good, straight mineral oil can also serve.
By that, I do not mean to imply that SAE 30 motor oil is an ideal;
you'd need to feed more of it, is all, in our engines. No big whoop, that.

Green Velvet is probably the ideal for those who will keep it well,
not trusting a years-old bottle to hold fresh contents (unless the maker advises better)

johnreid

Interestingly enough, I believe that I read somewhere that Mamod recommends Motor Oil. IMHO there is better stuff out there but if it works...

From my experiences, Too much oil can often be as bad as not enough.

Minor1PJG

Mamod did/ do suggest Motor Oil which I think we all agree is far from the best

I use 460T Steam Oil from Chas or PPS. Alan at PPS says he has a new & better blend since I last bought some from him (~5 years ago). I might try that in another 5 years

Mister Occlusion

Huh... I learn something every day here.

I've decanted enough oil from my GV steam and PBJ bottles to last me months. Think I'll write to the maker and see if they can think of any reason why freezing would *not* be a good idea, then I'll chuck em in the deep freeze.

The Green Velvet PB&J oil surprised me by how thin it is. I guess I was expecting something thicker, as they advertise it as being resistant to slinging off. It does seem to stick pretty well, as a film, however.

Here's a question for my multiple-oil-using-mates. Would you use Steam oil or Bearing oil on the contact surface between an oscillating engine cylinder and its steam chest?
The area gets exposed to steam and wetness, but not as a primary part of its function, as opposed to the inside of a cylinder.

IndianaRog

Mark,

To answer your question...I would (and do) use the Green Velvet "steam oil" on the mating surface between an oscillator and it's steam chest BECAUSE it is exposed to steam, heat and water.

The steam oil clings better than the Pin, Bearing and Journal type under those conditions, probably because of it's tallow content.

Let us know if you actually contact the GV people about freezing and what if any effect it might have on their oils. I have about a 10 year supply and could easily freeze off a good part of it if that saved it from going bad with time.

Rog

Reid

I'd be very surprised if they write back advising against freezing.

Why, the very stock itself must be frozen and thawed seasonally in countless places where it is used and stored.

It won't freeze like ice, but it will get plenty thick!
Freezing is preservative for most anything organic.

Just remember though: Never keep bananas in the refrigerator

I learned that from the Chiquita Banana song, y' know?

Wallace

I just simply use engine oil.
Actually, what Mamod Recommends (weight wise) isn't available over here due to lack of cold temps, so I use John Deere air cooled engine oil (don't laugh, it's free from work). That is nearly spot on weight wise, according to mamod.

I've never had a problem with it. The only thing I notice is if I put too much on a cylinder whilst it's running the engine will slow.
Oil before steaming, then one or 2 drops halfway through run works best for me

Does that happen with steam oil? Can slow a mamod down?

I was going to try spray oil from work (petroleum oil aka pest oil used on plants).
This is a oil which we add to our spray mixes to increase droplet size. It's weird actually. It mixes well with water, yet if you spill some, it won't evaporate and acts like regular engine oil

Reid

Minor1PJG

Yes, some of my Mamods will slow down for a moment after oiling into the cylinder - especially the Mamod Minor 1s