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toxx

Leave water in boiler?

Dear friends! I was given as an early Christmas gift the electric D24. Wilesco strenuously advises to watch water level, as the boiler has a circuit breaker which will blow if the machine is run without water in the boiler. I had her run from about 3/4 full to 1/4, then shut her off only to be amazed about how long she kept running on the still-hot heaters sans electricity. The boiler was practically empty (imagine Tom hoping around nervously, trying to cool the darn thing ).
So this time I shut her down with 1/3 left in the boiler, and still she ran and ran until less than 1/4. Is it okay, to leave the rest of the water in the boiler for the next run? I use distilled water, which is costly. Could the boiler take any damage with water left in it?
Thanks, mates
Says "electricity, the real swell new invention" Tom
johnreid

I doubt it does any harm, but I still prefer to drain all of mine, just in case.
tmuir

I usually empty mine and leave the SV out after I've finished with it.
I've noticed on a few of my engines when I empty them whilst they are still hot for the first few times the water coming out is cloudy. I'm guessing this is some of the scale that has built up inside the boilers from many years of running without emptying between because after a few times of doing this the water comes out clean.
James

I just leave all mine in  
IndianaRog

The only engine I leave filled and ready to run is the boiler on my Jensen 51 replica...at 5 inch x 10 inch it holds a lot of distilled water and I'm loath to waste it.  I do drain it completely every once in awhile (guilty conscience), but when it comes out it is as clean as it went in, so I don't feel I am doing any harm.   The boiler is brass with a nickel plated exterior.  I also leave the stainless steel water tower tank filled with almost a gallon of distilled water...likewise no harm there or anywhere in the lines leading to the boiler.
Mister Occlusion

If I'm going to be running the engine within the next week or 2 I leave the water in it.  If I'm boxing it up, I clean and drain it.

If my engine has a fairly clean boiler, as all of my newer ( less than 50yo) Jensen's seem to, I siphon the water back into my bottle for re-use.

Siphon hoses are great (Wilesco drain cocks are better, though).  Gets more water out that upside-down shaking does, and is easier to control too.  Use a clear hose and you can siphon off the boiling water without fear, leaving your boiler to dry by its own heat.

I decant water that's so hot that if the stream hits the plastic side of the bottle, instead of the cold water, the bottle begins to soften and deform  

So long as you cut the heat supply I don't know if you have to fear damage, Tom.  If you bleed off all of the pressure you can probably open things up and add more water to save peace of mind.  I usually shut down my electric heaters long enough to bleed off steam, then turn them back on as soon as I get the SV removed and the funnel in to refill.
Not saying that's best practice (not saying it's not best practice either), but I add slowly at first so there's not a big shock to the system when cool water hits the hot.
IndianaRog

One more thought on shaking boilers upside down to get the last drop out...I have plugged several whistles with tiny bits of debris (calcium? solder?) that I managed to run into them while shaking upside down.  I still have one whistle that seems permanently hoarse because of this practice.  I don't shake upside down anymore!!!

Like Mr. O...I now use a silicone siphon tube to get my boilers every bit as drained as shaking upside down will do...maybe moreso as you can tip the boiler a a couple of inches and suck the last little bit of water out of the boiler end where it collects, without risking the upside routine.
johnreid

I shake upside down, but I remove both the Safety Valve AND the Whistle first. My water is free of lime and I filter it for sediment, but I guess that mine is not as pure as the $1 a gallon distilled water as I am using filtered rainwater ( from my tap ) .
IndianaRog

Remove the whistle...I never thought of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The debris in the boiler's can be from assembly, prior owner running less than clean water or very hard water...I got bits of crud in the whistle of an older Jensen and I never run anything but distilled (67 cents a gallon at Walmart John!!)
Titan

I think that it is generally good practice to empty most of the water from the boiler after a steaming. It is not vital to get all of it out, but if you get at least half of whats left then it should be OK.

This is to help prevent scaling and other nasty stuff that can happen.  The reason is that as the water boils off, it leaves the dissolved minerals etc. behind. If you do not empty a boiler after a run, it leaves this lot behind, and then you add more with the next fill. Eventually it will be too concentrated to stay in the water and deposits itself as scale inside your boiler.  Empty your boiler after a run and you are getting rid of a lot of unwanted stuff. Doesn't matter if you do not get the last drop out as it will be diluted with the next boiler fill, just as long as at least some of it is getting out. This of course is much reduced by using de-ionised or distilled water, but not necessarily eliminated.
Griffin

I'm the same as John on this one, both the whistle and SV out, then the upside down treatment after the last run.

As for the water, I save every last drop, as I now have to distil my own water, as I found it impossible to obtain any over the counter.
Boilertite

Has anyone used descaler in their boilers? the sort of stuff that is used to remove limescale from kettles etc

I've just got some 'Oust' descaler liquid which I want to use in my loco boiler but wondered if there were any problems when using it with copper.
Reid

Opinion:  a steamed boiler has excluded all the air that was in there before.
Remember that oxygen plus damp are a nasty team of offenders.

If there's only one kind of metal inside the boiler, and
if the water used was pure, distilled, then I don't see any harm likely.

But--it is brass, the boiler in most engines.  You have a mix of zinc and copper.
With zinc and copper, of the two, zinc is the sacrificial metal if there be any electrolyte present.

Pure, clean distilled water is not an electrolyte;
but there will always be a "few" ions in the water...

And if their be some -other metal- such as a stainless steel (immersion heater jacket),
perhaps that's just too much chance of setting up a galvanic situation,
very slow to be sure, but...

I don't much like that they make almost all these toy boilers of brass.
If they were of copper, they'd be practically eternal, heirloom.

It's the zinc...sacrificial zinc.

---
As a for-instance, though, a steam generator like for a steam room:
cast iron boiler, copper tubing-jacketed immersion heater.
After ten years or so, even if not operated, in immersion,
the copper will have gone to bits.  The cast iron rusts too,
but of the two, the copper, thinner, fails first.
In the cited case I don't know if oxygen plays a role, but
there would have been oxygen getting back into the water
cos it was an open-ended system.

Now, there is no cast iron or steel in the toy steamer's boiler.
And it does have distilled water in it, not ion-rich tap water.


And if the throttle valve, etc, remains closed on the toy engine,
no oxygen gets into the boiler.

And of the two metals comprising the boiler, copper and zinc,
the zinc is the portion we worry about.  As it leaches out or corrodes,,,,IF it alters at all, there then the boiler grows brittle.

But that may never happen, or would need decades to occur.

In short: I will be keeping my new engine's boiler with water in it, like most of you guys.
But I will also dump it out from time to time as per Titan's advice
to avoid (there won't be any lime scale) concentrating ionized water
by repeated steamings/toppings/steamings.

I don't think I will outlast the toy, anyway.
Reid

With a relatively new engine--well, why not?  But how do you get lime scale if you use good distilled water, anyway?

From the Wilesco instruction sheet for currently offered engines:



-and how does acetic acid NOT attack zinc or copper?
In their convoluted English, they are saying DO NOT use vinegar.

-and the proprietary lime removers like LimeAway, etc: those are some powerful agents.  How can they be safer than vinegar?

Q: What acids are NOT likely to affect
the long-term life of thin, work-hardened brass?
And steaming to pressure is a form of work hardening, in a sense,
on the molecular level: thermal cycling makes strains.

A: I have no idea.  I don't know. If toy boilers were made of copper, this cleaning question would be a non-issue.  You could acid clean at will.

Zinc sux.  It just lets them make a polished, golden boiler with much better dent resistance than that of purest copper.
Thermal conductivity of brass is poorer than that of copper.
Brass is a bit harder to fabricate, too.  But,  they use brass because...???
-It shines better, longer
-It's cheaper cos copper costs more than zinc
-It's more kiddie-dent proof.
-It is stronger and so can be made thinner.  
Again: less of the costly copper needed
-Brass is good enough for a toy to last for decades if cared for.
johnreid

It does make me wonder, as they sell products to descale drip percolators. There again I usually just run vinegar through my coffeemaker a couple of times a  year.
I think that diluted vinegar that is not left in for a period of time would be the safest bet so far. Again it has to be run through, then water run through to rinse it all out.
A metallurgist friend of mine warns that Chlorinated water has a dezinkification affect so that should be avoided at all costs.
Mamodman123

Operate the whistle and turn upside down for me  
Reid

johnreid wrote:
It does make me wonder, as they sell products to descale drip percolators. There again I usually just run vinegar through my coffeemaker a couple of times a  year.
I think that diluted vinegar that is not left in for a period of time would be the safest bet so far. Again it has to be run through, then water run through to rinse it all out.
A metallurgist friend of mine warns that Chlorinated water has a dezinkification affect so that should be avoided at all costs.
Thought:  a percolator is under no pressure,
nor is it considered or wanted to be a durable appliance.

Zinc will be affected by vinegar.  Wilesco warns against vinegar.
Yet they shy away from condemning the commercical descaling chemicals,
yet, they won't suggest a possible-safe commercial cleaner;
it might come back to bite them.
Reid

Have bolded two key words as a reminder.
Here, we at least get a hint that the toy steam makers probably know brass
a lot better than we do!  

Quote:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/corrbrass.htm
Brass Corrosion

These alloys contain zinc as the principal alloying element with or without other designated alloying elements such as iron, aluminum, nickel and silicon. The wrought alloys comprise three main families of brasses. The cast alloys comprise five main families of brasses. Ingot for remelting for the manufacture of castings may vary slightly from the ranges shown.

In these alloys, zinc is added to copper in amounts ranging from about 5 to 45%. As a general rule, corrosion resistance decreases as zinc content increases. It is customary to distinguish between those alloys containing less than 15% zinc (better corrosion resistance), and those with higher amounts. A modern and comprehensive document on the subject is the second edition of the classic CORROSION BASICS textbook.

The main problems with the higher zinc alloys are dezincification and stress corrosion cracking (SCC). In dezincification, a porous layer of zinc free material is formed locally or in layers on the surface. Dezincification in the high-zinc alloys can occur in a wide variety of acid, neutral and alkaline media.

Dezincification can be avoided by maintaining the zinc content below about 15%, and minimized by adding 1% tin such as in Admiralty brass (C44300) and Naval brass (C46400). Adding less than 0.1% of arsenic, antimony or phosphorus gives further protection, provided the brass has the single a-phase structure.Again, a decrease in the zinc content to less than 15% is beneficial. Brasses containing less than 15% zinc can be used to handle many acid, alkaline and salt solutions, provided:

  1.

     There is a minimum of aeration
  2.

     Oxidizing materials, such as nitric acid and dichromates, and complexing agents, such as ammonia and cyanides, are absent
  3.

     There are no elements or compounds that react directly with copper such as sulfur, hydrogen sulfide, mercury, silver salts, and acetylene.



aeration: there's no aeration in boiling a chemical solution in a boiler,
for the air will be expelled if the whistle is opened as the boiler comes up to steam,
and allowed to steam for a few minutes or more to the atmosphere.  


Who feels lucky about descaling and also expecting their brass boiler to still be good in twenty years (if they care about that)?
bessytractor

I empty the boiler out as soon as the fires out, but leave some in to boil off while the boiler is still hot.  I have used malt vinegar in the past and it did do a pretty efficient job of cleaning the boiler, and also making a mess when I emptied it!

I must say this is a very interesting thread!  I'm learning a lot.
Wallace

As Bessytractor said, it's interesting to read.

The oldest engine I have is a Pre War SE1. There are members here with very nice German engines that are much older and those engines have stood the test of time.

So I see it this way. These engines were designed to be run. A usual procedure in the old days would be to run the engine, then empty out leftover water. They have stood the test of time being treated like that, so that's all I do. No descaling, no leaving water in etc.

Remembering too that quality of brass plays a part in dezincification. The engines I have had/have seen with dezinc boilers all seem to be of the mid to late 50's (mamod, with the large rectangle decal). Maybe they sourced their brass from somewhere different then?

Anyone who has one of these era boilers, or later, and also has a pre war engine, or mid-late 40's boiler, may noticed the brass on the latter boilers does appear to be much better quality.
Seems a lot smoother, goes a even dull copper colour and when polished come up like a mirror
steamyman

i leave water in as well.
Atticman

Wallace wrote:
As Bessytractor said, it's interesting to read.

The oldest engine I have is a Pre War SE1. There are members here with very nice German engines that are much older and those engines have stood the test of time.

So I see it this way. These engines were designed to be run. A usual procedure in the old days would be to run the engine, then empty out leftover water. They have stood the test of time being treated like that, so that's all I do. No descaling, no leaving water in etc.

Remembering too that quality of brass plays a part in dezincification. The engines I have had/have seen with dezinc boilers all seem to be of the mid to late 50's (mamod, with the large rectangle decal). Maybe they sourced their brass from somewhere different then?

Anyone who has one of these era boilers, or later, and also has a pre war engine, or mid-late 40's boiler, may noticed the brass on the latter boilers does appear to be much better quality.
Seems a lot smoother, goes a even dull copper colour and when polished come up like a mirror


Im with Wallace on this, suspect that the Zinc content was different.
Same happened with cars- Lancias and Alphasuds evaporated on the driveways in the 70s , thought to be due to a different (poor) steel quality.

I always empty out the water, can be tiresome with non drainplugged MM2s MM1s  

BUT doesnt answer how to clean the sightglasses that get discoloured - do we assume that occasional Vinegar is probably OK despite Willesco instructions.
How else do we clean them? Undo and scrub the glass?
tmuir

What ever you do don't remove the sight glasses on the Mamods that the are riveted on just to clean them as they are a bugger to refit.
mc_mc

On some (Mamod) models I believe the glass isn't glass and is plastic?    So that may discolour more easily and be trickier to clean.
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