Marshalls and Fowlers wooden casting patterns

James

Will it buggery mate. It will mean that you have something to treasure from days gone by

Cedge

James
I seem to have missed any recent new posting of photos of these patterns. I'd love to see more of them and, who knows, perhaps own one or two myself. Mind shooting a few more new shots for a curious old fart?

Steve

James

Have a look through this thread mate

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic9760-0.php

toxx

... I just found this thread, Jim. Pardon my late (and unnecessary

) stumblin' in, friends. To my mind, every bit of our heritage is a precious treasure. It breaks my heart to see which architectural, industrial and cultural treasures disappear in my country here.
Of course, not all can be kept. I'm realistic there.
Yet every bit that can be spared from destruction is memory to those who shall be here when no one knows of our existence.
I count on fine men like James C., John R. and all you others here to preserve evidence of what good men and women have built in our countries ...

Goethe once said: "Gesegnet sind die, die mit der Vergangenheit leben und von ihr zehren. Denn die Zukunft ist ungewiss, und die Gegenwart bereits vorbei."

I'll try to translate: 'Blessed are those who live and profit from the past. For unsure is our future, and the present already lost.'

Sandman

I thought it was time to put some sense into this debate.

As a hydraulics engineer who worked in the foundry in Glenfield and Kennedy Kilmarnock for 12 years, I have first hand experience in this topic.

These patterns have no value at all in the commercial casting process. The locating pins are worn or missing, the strengthening ribs are broken, the core extensions are missing and the external surfaces pitted and cracked.

Anyone who has a modicum of experience of commercial casting knows that it's not the patterns that are valuable, it is the pattern drawings that are of great value.

Any experienced pattern maker could knock out any of these patterns in jig time as long as he had the pattern drawings to work from.

So to sum up. As long as the pattern drawings exist, (Which they do.)there is no need to keep old and worn out patterns.

So for those who have decided to ride off into the night flying their heritage flags high, you've done it over a pile of junk.

The only value these have is exactly what James is doing with them.

Giving us a chance to own something that once helped to make a traction engine.

johnreid

True it was this or James

I bet a match has already been set to that particular pile of scrap.

James

Naa John, I've not got the last few patterns off the heap yet and I've pleaded with him not to burn til weekend.

I'll get a pic of it burning if you like

Cedge

Sandman
Ironic end results.... eh? Just goes to show.... no good deed goes unpunished, by some.

Steve

johnreid

Better to burn than to see someone you dont like getting to enjoy it. A real mature attitude.

Mamodman123

tmuir

I've finished reading through this post and see a number of people have got rather worked up by this and I've got a few questions to ask of those people that think James should donate the patterns to a preservation society.

BC are you going to donate you steam roller to a museum once it is restored for free as its a valuble bit of British history? Of course you are not and I don't blame you, you have put a lot of time effort and money into it. Just like James has put a lot of time and effort into getting these patterns.

Now for the rest that aren't lucky to own a real steam roller or traction engine how come I haven't seen you trying to raise funds to buy back the British made portable engines I've posted up here for sale from ebay Australia as surely they are an important part of British history too or are you only interested in saving British history when it requires no work on your behalf just a few words?

Basically what I'm saying goes along the lines of 'Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house'

Preserving history is great and I have managed to salvage important documents dealing with my local history and the railways and donated them to the local historic society but just because I did doesn't mean I should say someone else should especially when he was the only person interested in saving them.
I've said enough on this topic and won't be replying to anything else posted on this topic but if you disagree with me feel free to PM me with it so we can keep petty things like this off the public board.

Tony

Manxman

See as always the last at the party and all that needs to be said has been. Having read some of this and then got bored, I've got nothing useful or interesting to say.

It does all seem rather childish and just an attempt to find another way to have a go at James. I wonder if reactions would be the same if it was Sandy or Rog or Tony etc, who had got these castings and bits of old wood.

Time to move on, please.

Wallace

Not quite last to the party Manx, the time difference affects me

Without a essay type post (for once) it's plain and simple.

James did well to rescue these patterns. So what if he is selling them. Obviously he was the only one who cared enough to rescue them.

I know the building was being demolished. But it is not too often you hear about a 15yr old rescuing parts of history from a construction site. More often the story is 15yr olds vandalising a construction site.

Thankfully it doesn't appear James has been put off by the small minority of "mature" members.
For that minority, next time you read about teens vandalising a historical building/loco whatever.

Think back to James saving history.

I won't be adding anymore here

Stilldrillin

James

Well can I just say, thanks for the support from most of the members, it's appreciated. You know who your mates are.

toxx

... aye, mate!

8_10 Brass Cleaner

made-in-england

Oh do behave now! Think how many he would have had to miove and how lnog he would have had to rumage for to find that particular one! That is just pathetic! And may i also asked the person who posted the " how to behave on a internet forum" to re-post as i feel some would benifit watching it! IE too many trolls!

Mamodman123

James

MadeInEngland is 100% on the ball. Imagine looking through a couple of thousand patterns for one tiny one, it's labourious!

If you reckon I'm a dick then that's fine by me LOL!

johnreid

I bet if that particular one is that valuable to you that for a price, James would dig it out. I think that he is covered over with too many to pick out one specific piece. Knowing James though, if the right price was offered, one to cover the true effort required to retrieve one from the bottom of the stack and if it isnt already gone. I bet he would work it out.
We have to be realistic here, he has sheep, school, and chores at home to contend with too.

James

I dunno though John, I was thinking about donating some to the Lincs Life Museum, and it might go with them by accident

johnreid

Well then Mr Bog and others might have been even more wrong in the accusations. I am sure that the whole lot isnt desired by Lincs Life Museum and thus if you make up some of your expense, it is still a good thing.

Hats off to you, another notch up on the respect ladder you go too.

James

Cheers John, yeah I'm going to see if they want a few

Mamodman123

Sandman

James

You bet we are Sandy!

James

I am still thinking about whether to send them some or not. I've seen what they have round the back, sheds full of stuff waiting to be put on display, including 2 TEs!!

I dunno, maybe they shall sit under the shed a bit longer

johnreid

For the benefit of a Museum. Most museums have much more than what they display. This is often called the Museums Vault or Attic. It would be impossible to display each and every item they have, but they should be preserving the items for future use. Some day maybe when you are old like me, those TEs or a Casting Pattern might fit into the theme of an exhibit of some sort. Having preserved the items they will be able to showcase them at that time. Plus the cost of restoration might be prohibitive today but easily done when some benefactor leaves them a wad of cash to restore the TE or something like that.
So, if it is like most museums they would see to it that a donated item would be saved for some young lad to see 50 or 100 years from now.
Again, they might take one look at them and say that they are not even interested.
If I was in your position, I would pick a few of the most choice ones and take them there and discuss it with the Curator, that is the wise thing to do. I honestly do not believe that they would even be interested in the lot, just a few to use to demonstrate how the Engines were made. They are there to educate 15 year old Lads and I would think that if you asked to speak to someone that they would be willing to discuss what you have and honestly tell you if the items are of any interest to them or not.
Who knows, some day when you have Grandchildren, they could go to the museum on a school field trip and notice that an item is displayed with a note that GrandPa Jim had donated the item.

MTA

Indeed John, we have the same situation at Amberley concerning having too much to show.

Which is why we rotate the exhibits etc. every half a year or so and every item is catalogued and a date is written down as to when it was put out on display.

James

Aye John I guess you're right.

I'll rake a few with me to the Steam, Oil and Wind weekend

made-in-england

Take a couple nd give them and tell them that if they want a few more there welcome to them. Thats wot i would do..

Mamodman123

made-in-england

Hmmm thats always a possibliliy i suppose

James

I'll gladly give them a few but they ain't having them all

johnreid

James, I seriously doubt that they would want them all, however, give serious thought as to what you are to do with them as if not stored properly they will disintegrate from dry rot. Under a shed might not be good for long term storage.
If they were mine, this is what I would do:

First they do need to be sorted, there are many but I bet it could be done in less than a days time, then I would choose the very best examples and divide those into four stacks, One for James to keep for his own, one for the museum, one to sell to special forum members and one to send to my good friend in Indiana

Next, I would take those that are still nice and offer them for sale to those who want a memento of their British heritage ( I see all kinds of "historic" things sold every day so dont give me that it should be free because it is our heritage ) and if you so see it in your heart, give a few to your special friends who have helped you in the past ( Sandy MM Tony and the other Mods as they do care a lot about you and are really good friends )

Then you are left with the odds and ends, pack them up and take them to the boot sale, sell them cheap enough that you can make a few pounds but not for so much that you need to haul them back and forth.

I dont think it does anyone good if they rot under the shed.

James

LOL!

I might just do that, but I'm a very busy lad and need somewhere for storage permanantly

pauly

James in your first post on this topic you showed a pic of a piece numbered 88875 that I am interested in purchasing do you think you could email me with the details if you still have it

pauly

good on ya for saving them who would have thought a kid on a muck spreader would be the person to save such an important part of our heritage

and shame on all the so called heritage societies and museums who didnt even try

James

Well like it or not I've sold quite a few now

jim-gainsborosteam

johnreid

Jim, I bet James would be more than cooperative with you. I do not think it is his fault that such has happened. I honestly believe that he wishes for some of the heritage to be preserved just as much as you do. I also believe that you would agree that the whole lot isnt required either.

James

Well lad, what I've got I've got because dad's mate knocked down the factory!

If you want a few for the museum once it's up and running let me know!

Mamodman123

alan2525

James,

Can I just say that it's thanks to you that these foundry patterns have been saved. It is indeed a sensitive issue and it's a sorry situation to see some of the long term members on here departing, feeling so strongly about it too.

I hope that you can come to some sort of arrangement with the Gainsborough History Society, and maybe some kind of agreement that benefits the both of you? With the patterns being safely housed and cataloged and due credit to yourself for their preservation. Perhaps a long term loan?

So much of our heritage has been destroyed when factories closed and documentation, drawings and artifacts were just binned.

Alan

James

This is interesting...

Dad just rang, said he's spoken to his mate who knocked down and cleared out Marshalls. He mentioned giving some to the heritage group, and he told dad that they've been offered to them before, and they couldn't be bothered to fetch them! Also he's offered a load to the society including some big British Steel doors that were presented to Marshalls, which they haven't fetched. I'm going to talk with him to see if I can take them out his way instead now as he's getting fed up!

alan2525

James,

I hope you can get this sorted, try not to fallout with any of the members on here about it though, afterall you are all trying to do the best and preserve those items. I'm dissapointed some of the long term members of these forums felt they had to leave over it though.

It is a bit much to expect you just to donate them to some society though, you have taken time and effort into protecting those items and we don't do everything for free in this life.

Alan

Mamodman123

James

Exactly lad! It's a business, they don't hold stuff if there's no need...

bessytractor

wow, I never really bothered looking at this thread as I was concerned I'd end up buying a cylinder block pattern.

But wow. What a lot of controversy a bit of useless old wood sparks. As far as I'm concerned, James did the right thing and if selling them gets them about to people who will look after them, as well as some going to museums, I'd say mission accomplished.

I'm entirely with you on this one James.

Mamodman123

jim-gainsborosteam

to all who have reacted, I would like to say that I congratulate James for being so enthusiastic and willing to save part of a heritage that I myself am also passionate about, I have indeed expressed this to him on many occasions. I did not, or indeed do not condemn him for saving the patterns and selling some. After all, it is better than them being destroyed.
In response to James' dads telephone call, we were not directly offered patterns that were discovered in Marshalls works, however we were offered the doors, but then nothing esle seemed to come of the talks (and this was a while ago now).
I accept that a museum cannot and argueably should not aim to hold all such items found, however for a collections point of view, some patterns would be useful in charting the history of the company.

In my previous post I did not set out to offend, I merely would just like to argue that people should not jump to conclusions and comdemn parties without getting the facts ito order first.

I would now like to say to any of you who buy these of James, well done in securing a piece of history of what was a truly magnificent empire of a company and a significant part of my towns history.

bessytractor

thats very good of you, thanks for clearing that up.

James

Well I appreciate that!

You can have a few when the museum opens or whatever, as I feel that they should be shown to people!

I heard about where it's on about opening aswell!

Mamodman123

Well said that man

jim-gainsborosteam

Im somewhat pleases Ive got that off my chest.

Fear not, I will make sure the more local people to Gainsborough shall be invited when the new heritage centre opens, hopefully sometime within the nest few months or so.

And for James, I shall, should you wish, be willing to give you a look at our Marshall archive at some point when the museum is open. It truly is fascinating and something i'm sure you'd enjoy.

James

Thanks mate!

Could you send me the joining info again please? I kind of lost it

Do you have a book with all the pattern numbers in?

jim-gainsborosteam

i'll send it to your e-mail so that you get it asap.

James

alan2525

Sounds like the Gainsborough Heritage Centre will be a worthy home to some of those patterns!

But James - if you pardon the joke - no more "Get Rich Quick" Schemes with our industrial heritage in the future - Ok?

Mamodman123

James

Some people just won't listen...

Atticman

Ive just returned from a few days hols and am saddened that the thread is still going, apologies in a way for adding to it, but heres my bit

I do hope that some people from earlier postings will reflect on what theyve said, read through this and threads from as far back as May 2007, as well as postings re the Marshall buildings in round October- December 2007 and realise that its abundantly clear that James and others have seemingly come in for a huge amount of inappropriate personal flack. James and those who want these interesting castings are surely trying as hard as time and energy allows to keep as much heritage as possible.

What do those who are getting hold of James saved castings want to do with them? Surely save and cherish them, and not use them as fire kindling wood. This is what was to happen to them, for goodness sake.

If there were money to be made from this then shoot the beneficaries of I assume big money- the Developers and also the Council planning department , officers and Council representatives who in the majority must have presumably thought that such a development is in the countries and Heritages best interest, rather than shoot fellow steam enthusiasts who aim surely to preserve and enjoy their hobby.

I do wonder, mods, if its best as Moose said earlier to lock this thread.

It Would be a pity if some who want some of Marshall and Fowlers history to loose out if the thread drops down, but am sad that such a lot of rumble and bluster has been made of someones hard toil.

alan2525

James

Ahh sorry

Just that there's been so much sniping and shit slinging over these I don't know what's a joke and what ain't any more!

bessytractor

sadly the main flaw in forums.

James

Aye have to agree there!