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mogogear

Paint questions for boats

I ask these petty little questions here instead of PM's so others that might not know - can also learn....

What type primer and paints are best for boat hulls?

Water based / oil based, use japan dryer in oils?
Varnishes etc..

Who brushes and who spray's?

Very elementary stuff but getting the right type in the right order would seem to pay off in longevity and appearance !!

I want to start off on the right base coats so I do not do something that needs total sanding to remove --just to start over...

Thanks
MooseMan

Mo, I use International brand "JapLac" primer and paint - easy to handle. My boats usually get about 8 coats...two primer, three of paint and another two or three of clear laquer.

I use a good quality "no bristle loss" synthetic brush.
bessytractor

if the hull is wooden a coat of sand seal does wonders.  Its especially good if you rub down and apply a second coat, then prime.  I use Halfords grey.  Humbrol or Halfords for the main coat.  Be careful with some enamels, as they can react badly with some materials.  Also do not use Plastikote.  Its not too good for this sort of thing.  I spray my hulls as its quicker.  On my last boat I ran out of paint in the can before I finished the keel area so I quickly slapped some brush painted humbrol on.  No one can see it so it doesn't worry me.  I'll spray it properly eventually though.  Due to the fact its a tug and I never clean the hulls in order to gain proper weathering (looks really good) the paint soon looks pretty uniform.

Oh and make sure you go over the hull with a fine tooth comb if you are picky about appearences and fill any holes you find.  Its annoying when you have blemishes in the surface as the paint makes them look HUGE  
mogogear

Thanks -after much frustrating googling and searches for Japlac in the US - it is not so here,, and

I will try for the other mentioned next-- but laquer seems only available in spray cans... and enamel in small 4 oz sizes.

I have visited several hobby stores and found only 1/2 and 1 oz size bottles for airbrush application.

So I guess I will go with a suitable enamel primer, then enamel then a clear coat... darn it..
johnreid

I think that Testors is the US equivalent to Humbrol

Is JapLac like Rustoleum?
mogogear

I have found paint by International paints at a marine store under the Interlux brand by International... but even their web site says UK only.

Testors is enamel- and if it is the other brand I am unsure.. I will not eschew enamel - and will most likely cut it with a touch of thinner so the brush strokes will flatten out..

I still only find Testors in those little bitty 1/2 oz.  model bottles- Hey thats Rhyme    And to paint the inside and out of these two boats with a primer and then color would make me crazy... So I will go with something like Rustoleum in Enamel..and then a polyurethane over it all..

EDIT: I did find some good stuff on Testors -Finally - thanks again
Stitch

Great question Mogogear - I have been wanting to ask this myself. Thanks to all those who replied. This has been most useful    
MooseMan

Ah, drat, sorry about the JapLac thing! I'm no expert, I just went with what Hobbies recommended......maybe someone knows a US equivalent?
mogogear

I went with Testors lacquer's- so far all I have on is two coats of primer.. sanding then--- more primer-- more sanding------then color-- then sanding---- more color----sanding---- clear etc etc etc



Thanks  all
Bogstandard

Been building boats for a few years now (just over 40 to be exact).

The FIRST thing to do is SEAL the inside. Usually polyester (fibre glass) resin, a small amount poured in and sloshed about all over the inside, to form a nice even layer, getting into all the little nooks and crannies, and don't forget the underdecks. There is nothing worse than a boat coming apart on the water from the inside. It has happened, especially with steam boats, all that nice humid vapour, mix with steam oil, soaking into the pre-stressed woodwork and glue joints, all of a sudden it will pop apart. But you don't see that at the bottom of the lake.

For the outside. On a wooden model, in the modelling circles you would glass the outside with glass tissue and resin, then carry on from there. Or at a minimum, paint the outside of the hull with resin, a pig to rub down, but at least the hull will be sealed and watertight.

If you think that is too much, then maybe this will be of interest.

For a general runabout, the wood HAS TO BE SEALED.
Primers and gloss coats do NOT seal the wood. What will happen is that the water will find a way behind it eventually (you might not even see it until the boat starts to come apart) and usually forms a blister in the paint, by then it is too late, time for a complete strip off and a long dry out period.

Get as much cellulose sanding sealer on there, rubbed down between coats, as your body, nose and family can stand.
You then stand a chance of making the hull waterproof. Remember waterPROOF not waterTIGHT. The glass method is the only sure fire way of watertight. Once you have this hard polished outer shell of sanding sealer (about 6 to 8 coats) you stand a chance of a wooden hull lasting a bit longer than a couple of sailing seasons.

Now is the time to do all your filling and smoothing down, then a good primer.

Then you can proceed with painting it to your chosen colours, using enamels or car body sprays, but stay away from Plasticote paints. I have seen this used on a model, and when fully dried it came off like a snakeskin, leaving the underbase totally clean, ready to be painted again.

Hope this has helped, not put you off making model boats forever, but if it is done right first time, you will have a wooden hulled boat that will outlast yourself and most probably your children.

BTW, waterPROOF PVA adhesives are exactly what they say they are. For wooden boat assembly you cannot beat either 'Cascamite' (this is most probably what the original Bowman boats were stuck together with) or a medium to long setting time epoxy adhesive, not the 5 min muck.

John
bessytractor

Bogstandard wrote:
Been building boats for a few years now (just over 40 to be exact).

The FIRST thing to do is SEAL the inside. Usually polyester (fibre glass) resin, a small amount poured in and sloshed about all over the inside, to form a nice even layer, getting into all the little nooks and crannies, and don't forget the underdecks. There is nothing worse than a boat coming apart on the water from the inside. It has happened, especially with steam boats, all that nice humid vapour, mix with steam oil, soaking into the pre-stressed woodwork and glue joints, all of a sudden it will pop apart. But you don't see that at the bottom of the lake.

For the outside. On a wooden model, in the modelling circles you would glass the outside with glass tissue and resin, then carry on from there. Or at a minimum, paint the outside of the hull with resin, a pig to rub down, but at least the hull will be sealed and watertight.

If you think that is too much, then maybe this will be of interest.

For a general runabout, the wood HAS TO BE SEALED.
Primers and gloss coats do NOT seal the wood. What will happen is that the water will find a way behind it eventually (you might not even see it until the boat starts to come apart) and usually forms a blister in the paint, by then it is too late, time for a complete strip off and a long dry out period.

Get as much cellulose sanding sealer on there, rubbed down between coats, as your body, nose and family can stand.You then stand a chance of making the hull waterproof. Remember waterPROOF not waterTIGHT. The glass method is the only sure fire way of watertight. Once you have this hard polished outer shell of sanding sealer (about 6 to 8 coats) you stand a chance of a wooden hull lasting a bit longer than a couple of sailing seasons.

Now is the time to do all your filling and smoothing down, then a good primer.

Then you can proceed with painting it to your chosen colours, using enamels or car body sprays, but stay away from Plasticote paints. I have seen this used on a model, and when fully dried it came off like a snakeskin, leaving the underbase totally clean, ready to be painted again.

Hope this has helped, not put you off making model boats forever, but if it is done right first time, you will have a wooden hulled boat that will outlast yourself and most probably your children.

BTW, waterPROOF PVA adhesives are exactly what they say they are. For wooden boat assembly you cannot beat either 'Cascamite' (this is most probably what the original Bowman boats were stuck together with) or a medium to long setting time epoxy adhesive, not the 5 min muck.

John


thanks John for confirming that the way I described was the right one!  Last thing I want is someone to follow my advice and have a boat pile up and sink  
Bogstandard

Sorry about that BT, didn't notice your post otherwise I would have verified your findings rather than doing such a large one myself.

Teachers says 'always read before answering'

Slapped wrists.


John
mogogear

Thanks for your fine explanation....... I do understand the sealer aspect much more clearly....but errrrrrrr-   now I have primer all over the boat... So either I am now stuck with the errors of my steps... or faced with a daunting sanding  or stripping job...  

Well I will have to sleep on this...  
Nick

If you're going to do something, it is best to do it right. If I were you, I'd strip the primer and re-do it properly. It may be work, but it's part of the fun. In the end you'll be happy kowing it will last you a lot longer.
Bogstandard

Mogogear,
In your situation, get a big box of matches and a gallon of......

Just joking of course.
First off try to get the inside sealed as best as possible. It is the inside sealing that is the real important bit, because if water gets into the boat during normal operation (filling boiler, up the prop and rudder tubes) it is not usually noticed and attacks the joints while it is in storage.
For the outside, I would get a small tin of sanding sealer and try it out on a bit you have already primed, say underneath. If it takes ok, just paint the sanding sealer over what you have already done. Then carry on with your primer etc.
If it reacts, the choice is yours, either carry on with what you are doing and make sure you give the outside of the boat a good dry down after each use. Or strip off what you have already done and start again. If it was mine and it reacted, I would carry on as you were doing and hope for the best.
I made my boats to be in the water every weekend for a full sailing session of four or five hours, and to last basically forever.
So it might seem a bit of overkill on my part, but I will tell you now, it is no joy seeing someones prized possession turning turtle and sinking all for the sake of a bit of sealing and a few hours extra preparation. I have seen it happen many times over the years, and can be heartbreaking and wallet wrenching at the same time. It all depends how deep the lake is and whether the prop was still turning when it went down, because if it was, it will be far away from where you last saw it. Try to get the local sub aqua club involved, as we had to do for a few of ours.

John
mogogear

I genuinely appreciate all the input-'
Hopefully my eagerness will help other newbies to take heed0 ?( I should have read Bessy's post more slowly and carefully) I didn't pick up on the sand sealer term until Bogstandard mentioned it again, more dramatically !!

I have already gone and bought sandable sealer, and stripper. I have  stripped and sanded and sanded and scraped and wire brushed and dried and wiped off........ and sealed the first coat!!!



Amazingly I was able to get off about 95 % of the primer, stripped off the original water line ( and lower color) down to the wood . The paint on the outside - above water line - was another story.

That paint company must no longer me in business. BECAUSE THEY NEVER NEEDED TO SELL ANY MORE PAINT TO THEIR  CUSTOMERS. REPAINTING  WAS NEVER NEEDED AGAIN !!!

After getting the primer off of the sides- That original paint resisted 100grit sand paper- 2 whole sheets-more sanding and more stripper.  I got about 20% of the sides of the hull off. So it is above water line and hopefully the least vulnerable. I also drilled a hole into a sealed rear compartment and poured some sealer in there and coated it by rolling the boat around in the air.

So now - I will sand it lightly- and then re-coat again with sealer. Then I will re-read both of your instructions before I go onto the next part.

EDIT:

Ok- I will sand and re-coat sealer at least 5-6 coats. But I am stopping after my second coat tonight till I get my boiler and engine fitted so I know where to put the sleepers on the bottom. I call 'em sleepers - the square wood stock to screw the boiler drip pan and engine drip pan to.. I don't really want to screw them down through the bottom of the boat!!!!!

So I will halt now- get them located - glued in place- and then continue my sealer coats...

Since this is a Snipe-like boat- I will have to see if your "fiberglass " suggestions is what I want to do- Once again- I will carefully re-read your posts and make sure I was not just "browsing" too fast..

But I am thinking of priming a couple of coats after the sealer coats, then paint- then top coat. Sanding in between all..

Thanks again- I do want this boat to last for my daughter..
Minor1PJG

I have not bought a boat, but I have in mind that this year could be the year to dip my toe in    and buy a steam boat.

This thread has really fired me and now I know how it should be prepared, particularly the sealing of the inside I'm keen to make that purchase  
Nick

I'm glad to hear you re-did the project the right way.

It seems like a lot of people have been starting boat projects lately.
mogogear

To dredge this topic back up - I am approaching touch paint time on my new / old Snipe. After that is it still the consensus from Bogstandard or Bessy or others that I should then fine / fine sand the outer hull and "paint" with resin to really preserve and protect?

I am really thinking that would give a great protection and am heading that direction..

I think it really "flattens" out well and the brush strokes go away? It did a smooth job on my small repairs, but I want to be sure- to remove a complete resin coat would seem to be pretty destructive if I do not get this right!! I can re-sand the transition areas when I do the outer and I ASSUME do the same to the inside hull?

I would then have an encapsulated Snipe that would seem to go for another 70 years.. hopefully!!
H2o vapour

Hi Guys

Not been on for a few days, good topic this!!

I would like to add the point hear and now, if you are serious about boats, look at Bogstandard's notes.

This is the only way , I've been at boats on and off for 30 years now and I would totally support the method, the amount of work, and the materials.

Cascermite, I'm not sure what the modern name is, is the only boat building glue. Washing under the decks to get that seal is essential. Finishing is the hard part to any model. Do it well and it will re-pay your time and effort, again and again.


H20
mogogear

Thanks H2O-

I have done all that with my first boat, sealed - with LIBERAL amounts and have done three coats to the inside hull then will primer 2 coats and then resin coat.

It is the outside hull I am asking about..And on a Original Snipe that I have had to repair the hull

Then touch up the paint,

I assume the next step would be to lightly sand entire outer hull , then clear coat with something that is compatible with the original hull paint ( enamel?) so enamel clear coat??

Then lightly sand ( with something like 600 or 1200 grit WD

Then resin coat the outside hull?

That is where my question lie now--- And H2O - i will not waver from what the pro's recommend!!

Thanks
MooseMan

Mo, I can only tell you what I would do....I must admit here that resin scares the living bejaysus out of me, because once it's on, that's where it stays - no room for mistakes, and I have NO idea how it is going to react with the paintwork on your Snipe......I would personally finish it with a good quality marine grade varnish.

Oh yeah, and I agree with the Cascamite comment - that stuff's great! You buy it in powder form, just add water. Stinks, and is probably poisonous, but it doesn't hang about getting the job done!
mogogear

I know- resin gets my attention as well, but It paints on much like any clear- except it is hardening. It is sandable... So doing the inside of a hull with it doesn't bother me in the least- it will sure make leaks out of the question..



Paint, clear coat, resin or Varnish or what?
MooseMan

Mo, you have a PM.
boyesreef

this sounds like what i want to do to my boat, anyone have US available brands of paint that works well? ive fiberglassed, but ive never painted and sealed anything that will be in direct contact with water. also what about the prop shaft hole? mine has a seal, should i drill the hole bigger and fiberglass the hole, adding back to the material?
RocDoc

Mo, this is a really great thread.  I totally agree with what others have said about sealing the inside of the boat especially if you want to sail the boat every week or want to preserve it as a family heirloom.  

This is what I've done on my boats.  After stripping the old paint off with Nitromors, I leave the hull to dry out thoroughly for two to three weeks (in doors ... under the bed).  I then use an oil-based primer paint inside and out and apply at least three good coats leaving each coat to dry for a few days.  I do some sanding in between coats but not to make a super smooth surface.  I prefer to see the grain of the wood in a boat.

I know this is only painting the surface of the wood and not sealing the wood properly using resin etc ... but then again, how many of the original Bowman steam launches were sealed using resin ... I suspect non ... and how long do these boats last ... at least over 70 years.

After the primer and sanding, I apply two or three coats of gloss paint inside and out, leaving each coat to dry for several days.  Lastly, I apply at least two coats of Japlac varnish all over (as per Mooseman's comments).  Every part of the hull, even parts that are totally hidden from view get this treatment.

I think a good, well prepared paint and varnish job should last for many years providing that the boat is dried out thoroughly after each sail.  Saying this ... I've only sailed the Seahawk once ... the Tia once and the Juliette (Arrow) ... err ... never.

Cheers

Pete
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