[Bubba]

In the "Tech Tips, Details, Home Build and Help Me" part of this Forum a thread was censored stating

[Sandman]

[Bubba]

Sandman,

The boiler links were never intended do to any harm, and IF the Russian gent made a bad choice in construction, why not show WHY?
How can young members learn if we don't get to see or discuss mistakes.

The JENSEN #45 was made with a steel boiler sitting on top of a 110VOLT electric heater.

I personally think this is somewhat "dangerous", and may "potentially harm" someone. Should any reference the Jensen #45 be deleted also?

I can recall an idea on this forum to fly a steam engine around on a string tether, a bit "dangerous"..... but those are just my thoughts?

[Sandman]

[IndianaRog]

Bubba, as Sandy pointed out...we as a forum team have to make spot decisions not always guided by a "rule".  I personally like to apply the "father rule"...would I want a 10 year old trying out a glass bottle on the kitchen stove as a boiler??  Simple answer.

We've erred on the conservative side I'll admit, but just imagine the uproar (lawsuit/forum shutdown??) if we condoned some crazy YouTube video only to have a forum member or guest try it and injure or kill themselves.  Even the show MythBusters repeats ad nauseum "kids, don't try this at home"...

We won't always catch harmful stuff, but we try our best...meanwhile I'm sure our youth are getting plenty of influence outside this forum...good and bad.

cheers,
Roger

[Bubba]

[redryder]

I found that boiler made of a glass bottle perched on a stove burner some months ago on youtube. I agree that it is not an appropriate thing to showcase unless showcased ONLY as an example of a dangerous piece of hardware, a good example of what not to do. If the publisher allows comments, that would be a good place to voice opinions (right on youtube where all who find it can read the warning). As for the Jensen 45, it has a safety valve and true over time the steel boilered models would dteriorate. The brass boilered Jensen #45's are pretty bullet proof. To my knowledge there are no reported catastrophic failures of the steel boilered Jensen on record. They tended to be overbuilt to begin with.  I have an as new example of the #45 steel boiler and I don't use it. I will support the moderating team in any sfety related decision they need to make.

Gil

[made-in-england]

Ummm i Feel that this is going to escelate into the sort of thing James' patterns did and offend members and cause members to leave.. Shall we just stop arguing about why or why not the thread was deleted and do what were all here to do.. Talk steam and other such things!!

[Cedge]

I was the one who initiated this part of the discussion when I pointed out that Cam was indeed seeking instructions for building a simple engine and boiler. When I saw the glass bottle being used, I stated that it was unsafe and not an appropriate example. I still strongly stand by that judgement.

As one PM asked me... why didn't he just jam the hot bottle against his face and smack it with a large hammer to save time?  The example was dangerous and we've seen a few new steamers copy some very bad ideas, already. I offer no apology for my stance. I'm in the toy steam industry and we don't need another horror story when it can be prevented.

Had the thread been a safety discussion of Do's and Don't", perhaps the video would have had a place. In a thread where a request for building instructions was the subject , it simply bordered on malice and was therefore, then and now,  indefensible.

The moderators are free to moderate in a manner long established, whether it be my posts or yours. They are the ones charged with that duty. It's happened to me in the past and I certainly had no problem with their proper taking actions.

Steve

[johnreid]

I didnt see it, but now am thinking of the Forklift Video.

[IndianaRog]

John, I can't speak for the others on the forum team...but I for one found the forklift video to be a good parody of the endless training videos many of us have endured in our lifetimes.  I'm not concerned with a 10 year old replicating those forklift manuvers!

[Atticman]

[johnreid]

I sure do not think that anything personal was intended, it was a judgment call and the Mods are in the position that they had to make the decision. I think they do pretty good, some things might slip by on occasion but that is bound to happen.
I sure enjoy Bubbas posts so please stick around and let this one fade into the forgotten past.

[igy569]

I would agree as well.  As a "new" steam enthusiast, its in everyones best interest to let the moderators do their job.  Why take any chances?  Better safe than sorry.  BTW..  I drive forklifts for a living, and they still scare the be-jesus out of me!!
 

[pauly]

[Wallace]

No offense was intended by removing the link involved.

Many would see the dangers involved in using such a boiler, but others wouldn't. Especially after seeing a video of it, they may think "well it worked for him".

Bursting points of glass probably isn't the issue here. But glass being heated, that isn't intended for heating, combined with some pressure is the issue.

The last thing we would want to hear about is someone being injured through trying something that they read about or saw on these forums.

[Mamodman123]

We don't remove posts for the sake of it. We felt it was in the best interest to our members for the video to be removed. If its not on here then the temptations not there to "give it a go"

A boiler made from a beer bottle balanced on a gas stove is dangerous and should not be tried at home.

[tmuir]

Moderating is something we really don't like to do and it is done sparingly but on occasions we have deleted videos in the past that we have considered too dangerous as we have a lot of young members here and don't want to ever receive an angry email from a parent telling us her 'little Johnny' is now in intensive care because he tried to copy something seen on our forum.
Yes all steam engines can be dangerous and cause serious harm but we have to draw the line somewhere and it was deemed that video was too dangerous.
Some may disagree with us and that is your right.

Being a moderator is a knife edge to walk on.
Delete threads and be accused of censorship or victimising a person, don't delete dangerous threads and be accused of leaving dangerous stuff up that could cause serious harm to someone.
Bottom line is the mods and admins work as a team and any action we take is always with the view os whats best for our members and the forum as a whole.
Our actions (or inactions) from time to time are bound to upset some people as thats just the way it is, but rest assured all actions we do are considered and unbiased.

I think enough has been said on this topic now and its time for us to all get back to what this forum is about.
Tony

[flywheel61]

I am not going to buy into this except to say that the mods do a great job, all on a voluntary basis, please remember they are ordinary people like the rest of us, and are trying to do the best they can for the majority of the membership. This is not about censorship but about safety.

Thank you for the time that you have given to us to make this the best steam forum around.

Cheers    

Chris

[Bubba]

Since I started this thread, and have had the displeasure of being the recipient of the deletion, may I have one last say? After this I will end my views.

I understand that steaming safety is very important. But is the deleting of maybe-unsafe glimpses a new standard of Forum "safe chat", a new unwritten rule that will equally apply to everyone? Are we on some new safety crusade to clean-up post to make them child safe. At what age will we start, 6 year olds perhaps? Or do we leave it arbitrary and capricious.

I have had only one PM on this issue. I therefore note that many of you have not even seen, nor know the exact nature of the "offensive" post.
The link was, and is, a full page description of how to build an oscillating engine. The ONLY part that has even been mentioned (as a pretense for the censorship) was the Video shown at the end of the tutorial. In the video, for brief seconds, the camera pans to a boiler on a stove. NO plans for the boiler are mentioned, NO endorsement OR encouragement to create it, ONLY a brief camera shot. Now, I agree that the boiler is likely unsafe, BUT is that the new standard to delete postings of otherwise worthwhile value? Why wasn't the safety of the boiler simply debated and discussed if it was such a child endangering and horrid site? Why delete the whole link and not simply the dreaded video ?

Here are some facts that I note:
Cedge: says quote: " it simply bordered on malice and was therefore, then and now,  indefensible."
Well Cedge isn't quite un-biased or without predudice on this issue.
Is Cedge a Vendors Rep, associated with Jensen Company for services rendered {Jensen sells new boilers} ?
Since he waives the malice red flag and scare tactics let me call his hand out.
I again mention the Jensen #45 for the same unsafe boiler conditions (electrocution, boiler bursting due to steel deteriation) that so many moderaters say is the reason for action on the deleted link. Will Cedge come on this site, since he is in the "toy steam industry", and defend  that the Jensen #45 steel boiler is safe for a 10 year old to play with?

If he does, doesn't he risk liability; if he chooses not to , will moderators delete pictures, links, and threads of steel boiler Jensen #45's in the interest of child safety?

Who was it that said; " All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. "

For those that may be free and mature enough to go to Google for knowledge, you may research this svo oscillating engine and judge for yourself its value to be banned, censured, or forbidden on the Forum.

I'm done. Enough said.

[Cedge]

Bubba
You, sir, are way off base and I stand by my opinion without bias. Your concern for the Jensen model 45 is touching but its record speaks for itself. I need not defend a decision by anyone by Hobson's choice, over 50 years ago. Jensen has made no secret of the steel boilers or the effects that age can have on them. In fact I've made it very clear on the web site as well as when I become aware that one is changing hands, so you're red herring is not much of a fig leaf for you to hide behind.

You don't see me trying to sell anything Jensen on this forum unless I'm asked to specifically do so. I've made it a point to not do so, with the exception of when I  happen to have a used Jensen engine to offer. Then it's my own personal commerce and has nothing to do with the company.

Had you posted the video as a "what not to do" thread it would have had some validity. You posted to a new guy wanting to build an engine and a boiler. That is a huge difference in subject matter. I'm just surprised you'd try to defend it as you have.

It's all a moot point now that the link has been deleted. Now.. as asked, I'll move on to toy engines and civil discourse.

Steve

Who's Forum Troll Detection Device is pinging madly.

[tmuir]

Yes Cedge is a rep for Jensen and yes he does have a vested interest in safety as a whole for toy steam.

Before my time (Well before I was old enough to know what was going on) just before Christmas  in the 70s there was an accident with a Mamod toy steam engine that seriously hurt a child.
Whether or not Mamod had done anything wrong it seriously hurt them and sales of steam toys drasticly dropped after that.
Cedge knowns what the media is like, any injury caused by toy steam engines that gets bad media in the long term could hurt all companies that make toy steam engine companies.

This forum is free and run by volunteers, we make decisions on how we think this forum should be best run, not everyone agrees with us all the time which is a shame but its not possible to keep everyone happy all the time.

If anyone feels we are doing that bad a job they are welcome to have a look around and see if they can find a better run / managed forum or simply make a suggestion on the improvement board as to what we can do better. Of course we make no promises we would take up the change but would certainly look at it and discuss it.

Time for us all to move on.
I'm locking this thread as I think all the involved parties have now had thier say and I don't want this thread to drag out and take us all away from why we come here