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| IndianaRog |
Restoration Philosophy QuestionI have personally restored dozens of steam engines over the past few years and clearly fall in the camp of 100% restoration virtually down to the last nut and bolt...including decals...seeking a like new appearance.A second philosophy some folks follow is preserve, preserve, preserve...cleaning a bit but keeping in virtually 100% original condition. As I browse this forum I often see a third approach to restoration...polish but don't paint. Every last bit of brass is polished to a gorgeous shine, but it is common to leave fireboxes, engine frames and metal bases in original, rusted or paint in badly chipped condition. I'm just curious WHY these other bits are left in sorry shape next to hours of hand polish work. Strikes me as if someone polished the heck out of a car's bumpers and every bit of chrome on it...but left the paintwork in run down condition. Just trying to understand this third philosophy as it is alien to me 
cheers, Rog |
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| Mamodman123 |
I see your point Rog. I myself could not bare or bring myself to sand down paint thats been on an engine for 70-80- years! I'll polish the boiler though as that doesn't destroy the history of the engine and will dull down after a few steamings. The only time I wouldn't polish a boiler is if its never been fired and the laquer still remains in good condition. I wouldn't say a base with a few chips here and there is a sorry state....a few battle scars yes but some of these engines are up to 80 years old  . A bit of rust and a few chips tell a story of the engines life, if you strip it clean and re-paint a bit of history is lost I feel...
As for your 3 steps i'm somewhere between the bottom two! Preserve paint and decals but polish boilers  .
Hope that helps
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| SPOKESMAN |
I prefer to call it renovation rather than restoration. | ||||||
| Mamodman123 |
Depends if you're painting or not...... |
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| Sandman |
I go with preserving originality.
You can as you say Rog, polish the brass and copper work till it is dazzling, but that is still original brasswork and takes nothing away from that. The paintwork although chipped can be polished as well to make the most of what is there without complete restoration. To me, the engine below illustrates my philosophy. Beautiful in my eyes, but still retaining it's unique character. 
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| Steely |
That's an absolute stunning engine SM.  Although sometimes it harder to choose whether to repaint which was the case with my 1946 SE1, I felt it was too old and rare to repaint because it would take all of it's character away.
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| Mamodman123 |
Good decisioni think Steely! Tis a cracker of an engine 
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| Steely |
Aye runs forever aswell. 
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| Mamodman123 |
While being drowned by a Bowman
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| Steely |
They don't make them like they used to.
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| Sandman |
Now I can appreciate that way of thinking, however ,I realise there are exceptions to the rule. I would say the argument for complete restoration kicks in when corrosion or ill treatment threatens the very existance of the engine. In that case I would say full restoration is fully justified. I have to say though I prefer if I can polish and preserve. 
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| Mamodman123 |
true SM! I would hate to wipe clean a 80 year old Bowman though, it would kill me to do it!
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| IndianaRog |
My philosophy in picturesI hear what you guys are saying and yes I can see the desire to preserve history...guess I just have a hankering to make old into new.The following link to my Jensen 1937 4 bolt #25 is probably the best example I have of how I love to take boat anchors and turn them into prom queens. http://www.indianarog.com/jensensteamengines.htm#96209239 I guess there are enough engines around so we can all approach our collections in the way that makes us happiest...for me, pass the stripper and polyurethane!!!
cheers, Rog |
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| Mamodman123 |
Re: My philosophy in pictures
Maybe so....But the new stuff should be new and the old stuff should be old! I guess you get enjoyment out of it so i'm not one to cut your arms off you're doing a great job anyway
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| Steve_S |
I think it depends upon the state of the engine, but as we know( ) this question can elicit strong and contradictory opinions! Most of my engines were such wrecks when I got them that full restoration, including paint, decals, and newly made parts was the only way to go. For other engines which were in slightly better condition I've just polished the brass and kept the old paint which, I agree, preserves the character thats been aquired over the decades!
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| Sandman |
I second that Steve. Some of your resurrections have been nothing short of miraculous. These engines were destined for oblivion or someones scrap box. You not only saved them, but restored them to their former glory. A perfect example of both camps.
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| oldstuff |
I tend to like when vintage items look the part. Grandpa wouldn't be grandpa if he didn't
have some wrinkles. Time is a factor, too. Depends how you like to spend it!
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| Wallace |
Great saying about the Grandpa there mate, and very true. In response to the original Poster, it's all really horses for courses, and a personal opinion. As the general jist goes here, when corrosion and such threatens the life of the engine it's a matter of doing what is appropriate. Unfortunately once rust starts, it needs to be totally wiped out, otherwise it keeps going and steam engine builds don't always allow for totally wiping out rust. So all you can do is slow it down. A big part of the charm of these engines to me is the age, and original condition compared to age. I like to look at them and think "that's all original as it come from the factory". I generally try to preserve them as best I can, and apart from one particular case, I have found that's it's a total paint, or nothing. In reference to the old car with shiny bumpers. Well I've restored/preserved a lot of old cars. I have often found the chrome bumpers to be ok, the rest needs work. In more than one case I have done up a older sought after car mechanically, but left the rest alone, including original paint that had gone "chalky", chrome in good condition, interior good. The resale was more than the same type car that I had fully repainted. An example was a 1967 model. No rust, chalked paintwork, but a seized engine and gearbox. A new gearbox, mostly new motor, then a polish, and I sold it for $14,000. Same model car, that I fully restored apart from interior. This included new door skins, and a lot of welded plates elsewhere. Paint too. It sold for $9000. I won't add the numerous calls where people had asked if it were all original  Then showed no further interest when I told them
As there are differences in us doing up engines to certain degrees, there are also collectors who wouldn't touch/collect a restored engines, and others who would prefer restored. It's all up to the owner, and there's no right or wrong, generally |
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| IndianaRog |
Good points all on whether to restore fully or just polishWallace, you probably said it best of all and I know exactly what you mean about some folks willing to pay MORE for less restoration and just the opposite for something "Over restored"...perhaps the same for old cars as old steam toys.I have fortunately honed my toy steam collecting such that once I acquire a piece, it will likely be with me til the end and I personally love the look of all shiny and new...especially when 70 years old. Often times pieces I have picked up are quasi junkers or previously botched refinishes to start with and I scavange parts from one or more donors to reach a suitable whole...then refinish that as one right down to custom decals, new screws and sometimes new wood. It makes me happy to have them looking perfect and running like the day they were made...in a sense I feel I'm preserving history as if that piece emerged from a time capsule. My 1937 Jensen 4 bolt: http://www.indianarog.com/jensensteamengines.htm#96209239 is the most extensively restored piece I have, rescued from boat anchor status...I love it dearly now and enjoy showing before and after pics. If I could find an SE4 from the same year I wouldn't hesitate to bring it back to like new condition, as it's only me I gotta please and the piece in reality gets a new lease on life...rust stopped in it's tracks and it looks like the day some lucky boy got it for Christmas 70 years ago. As noted often by many of us...if we are all alike in our tastes, this would be a very boring world. I asked the original question to better understand how the "keep original" guys view it...I do see where you are coming from and respect your approach as that which keeps YOU happy. cheers, Roger |
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| tmuir |
I prefer to keep original if possible but there is a line that once you cross it full restoration is the only answer.
Like my two bowman 234s that have no original paint left on them. As such I'm happy to repaint everything and even convert them to 45mm guage as they are not in original condition. If the paintwork was still intact I wouldn't dare change the guage. |
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| mj |
Steely, have you posted any pics of your se1, you know you can never see enough of these things
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| Wallace |
Indiana Rog, great job on the 1937 Jensen 4 bolt.
I forgot to add, that I acquire steam engines with the full intention of keeping them to the end. Only a few have been bought for resale. I am suprised how many similarities there are between the car thing I used to do, and steam engines. Both have the purists, anoraks/rivet counters, restorers, modifiers etc. The worst I saw was joining a car club that were beyond purisits. I lasted about 2 weeks, and left/was asked to leave. EVERYTHING had to be original. To put it into perspective, if it were a steam club, no engines with repro safety valves, whistles would be allowed. And for things like washers, they would have a supplier to make them to exact specs of originals. I would go as far as saying they would probably allow meths with a minimum % of ethanol in it to
I say that, because this particular club was that strict it it had to officially change it's rules to allow engines to accept hardened valve seats when leaded fuel got phased out here. That is a part that cannot be seen, and non-one would know it's there, doesn't enhance engine performance, and if it wasn't there when using unleaded fuel engines would start to fail |
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| Steely |
Some people would say it needs repainting because there is hardly any paint left on the base, but I couldn't bring myself to repainting it because it would look too shiny and clean.
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| mj |
less is definately more with that one. if i had to choose between yours & the one thats on ebay yours would win hands down
The rarer they are the less likely i would be to repaint. I only tend to repaint as a last resort. Not fan of new paint work, but thats just a personal thing. If someone had butchered an se4 by repainting it, i'd still have a punt on it though
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| yosa |
For me, there's no overall philosophy or preference, and I take it on an engine by engine basis.
If it's particularly old, rare or valuable, and in reasonable condition, then I'd leave it. If not, then I would view a full restore as being part of the fun of playing with these things, which is what it's all about. I generally buy what I like, and intend to keep, rather than potential investments, so a full restoration, or even a custom job, is just fine by me. Because I see restoration as part of the fun though, I wouldn't buy, or at least I wouldn't pay top money, for somebody else's restoration. I've seen Rog's restos on his website, and I think they're stunning, and when compared to their original condition, wow, , and some of the stuff I've seen by the Fellas on this forum just leave me in awe.
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| SPOKESMAN |
The old thorny issue of to restore or not to restore, then if you decide to restore - to what degree? total repaint and new parts or partial repaint and make do and mend? - at the end of the day its all up to the individual. Im against overstoration, restoration for restoration's sake. I'd prefer to call my work renovations as opposed to restortation - where an item is taken back to how it looked when it left the factory. Just to illustrate my philosphy here are a few I have tinkered with . . .
M122 before . . . 
I wasn't going to put up with that paint job! After . . . 
Went the whole hog and did the firebox too, could have been left though the base would have shown up the rest. M140 . . . 
POOR CONDITION After just a polish and clean, I could have painted the base and firebox too, but the decal would have been ruined, OK so its a mixture of very clean and clean/but battered . . . suits me. 
SR1a . . . Before: 
An engine toally ruined by good intentions, this had to be restored. This is the nearest I have done to a 'restoration' ie put it back to how it was when it left the Thorns works in 67. 
Its all down to personal preference, we all do this because we love it, we all have our own ideas and ways of approaching the problems faced with a real dog of an engine. This debate will always prove to be a good conversation as well as throwup the odd argument! |
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| Mamodman123 |
That litttle SE1 runs like a dream one of the best performers at STIA. I wouldn't be tempted to paint it, it looks great Steely!
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| MooseMan |
I tend to buy only those engines that NEED restoration - what Rog calls "boat anchors". To me, bringing a pile of rusty tarnished bits back to life is the most satisfying aspect of this hobby. All my Bowman engines were wrecks when I found them, sometimes almost beyond recognition, and I've had a great time getting them up to parade standard.
There are a few engines in my collection that I haven't touched, or only in a very minor way.......my Jensens have just had a coat of varnish to protect the wooden bases and, apart from replacing a heater element and a cracked cylinder, that's it. The Mersey is in totally original condition, just polished. On the other side of the spectrum, my Bowman 265 has had a basic repaint - I have made no effort to reproduce the original design, as it is intended to be a runaround, which I can fire up whenever the fancy takes me without worrying about the paint. My 265 loco is, for its age, in spectacular condition, so I tend to be a bit more cautious with that one. Then finally, on my 300 loco all the normal playwear has already happened, but it still looks great! So that one I'm leaving as it is, and again I can run it with impunity. |
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| Cedge |
I note a good deal of agreement that a "wrecked" engine should, if possible be salvaged and returned to running condition. I think most of us agree that keeping our engines clean is paramount to keeping them healthy and operations.
We recently discussed the restoration vs renovation vs preservation on this board and the opinions were just as varied as the ones shared here. Obviously no one single opinion or set of guidelines are going to become "articles of faith", especially since each of us views our engine "husbandry" responsibilities by different lights. I've restored/renovated/preserved quite a number of engines over the years and found that each individual situation was unique in any of several ways. From my personal perspective, I long ago establsihed a few rules of thumb that guide me in how far I will take the effort, as well as when it is needed. While not carved in stone, these keys give me some guidance when rendering my own judgements. Case in point: I've just bought what is perhaps the oldest Jensen model 10 I've ever encountered. This engine, from all empirical evidence, dates back to the time of 1933... only one year after Jensen was founded. A 1932 date could possibly be persuasively argued, but I'm quite content to let the '33 time stamp stand, at least until more definitive information becomes available. Condition: Engine is dirty to the max. 40% plus or minus of the firebox paint has departed exposing galvanized steel Smoke Stack housing is missing Chimney is missing. White control handles badly deteriorated Motor has 80% plus paint intact, but stained from age and environment with some surface rust apparent on the magnet. Nickle plating is in near new condition on all plated parts Round hotplate style, ceramic based nichrome wire style heating element is in pristine condition but past experience tells me it's likely to be too fragile to remove. replacement smokestack housing is rusted and will require repainting. Wooden base is in very good condition but impregnated with grime. Original power cord is present but had non original plug end. Lamp post is in need of solder to secure the round metal base. Engine arrived with whistle port boss broken away from the boiler requring resoldering to repair. (bad packaging and impact during transit) Before I give my own assessment of how I think the engine should be repaired/restored/renovated/preserved, I'll let you fellows have a go at what you'd do and how you'd come to make your decisions. Photos of this engine can be seen at http://www.cedesign.net/steam/10 . Have a fair go at it and then I'll describe its likely future fate and why. Best Steve |
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| tmuir |
I'll start off with I'm not a Jensen expert but I'm guessing from what you are saying this is a fairly rare and valuable engine which means for me to preserve as much of the original as possible.
For its age it is in general good condition. The motor side as you said looks pretty good. I would give that part only a general clean down and coat of light oil over rusted parts to slow corrosion. The base I would do nothing more than soapy water on. I like my engines to be able to run so I would resolder the whistle port and lamp post. You say the smokestack housing is not original so I would probably be tempted to paint or replace that bit (If the replacement one that is on it is old in its owne right I would just paint it.) Would probably get a new chimney for it is that is possible. I would leave the firebox as is. If the electric element is non functional its a tough call to replace or not. I dont know enough about Jensens but if I thought replacing element would devalue it I would leave it else I would replace it. My main goal would be to get it running with leaving as much as possible original. |
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| Cedge |
Tmuir
As luck would have it, the heater is indeed intact and appears, at least from visual inspection, to be in excellent shape and should be operational. This particular style of heating element is simply not available anymore. I've seen serious Jensen collectors go to great lengths to protect these rare little devils. A good spare is nearly worth its weight in gold. The smoke stack will have to be handmade, but I have the original specs and material on hand. The whistle port boss was fixed before I even gave the engine a preliminary wipe down and full inspection. A running engine to add to my collection is the end goal. You are correct in assuming this one to be quite rare and of high value. At present two of them are known to exist and I'm currently working to determine if a third one is in here, from a client, for restoration. Steve |
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| SPOKESMAN |
I certainly think the Jensen could do with some work, the lack of a chimney looks very odd, the paint of the firebox does mar its looks, Id perhaps see if I could leave the engine paint work - concentrate on the firebox and sorting the mechanical issues.
Looks a tough old machine!
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| Wallace |
[quote="Cedge]
I've just bought what is perhaps the oldest Jensen model 10 I've ever encountered. This engine, from all empirical evidence, dates back to the time of 1933... only one year after Jensen was founded. A 1932 date could possibly be persuasively argued, but I'm quite content to let the '33 time stamp stand, at least until more definitive information becomes available. Great idea Cedge, certainly worth a discussion, and you should have started a new thread mate, it's worth it
Ok, here I go. I'll comment under each bit and am looking at the pics Engine is dirty to the max. Boiler looks clean, but anyway I'd clean it using whatever methods you use. 40% plus or minus of the firebox paint has departed exposing galvanized steel Being gal steel, I'd be inclined to leave it as is. Reason being it's suitable wear for it's age, and not detrimental to the life of the engine Smoke Stack housing is missing Not sure what this bit is? Cos I thought it was the bit at end of bolier that chimney attaches to? That bit is badly rusted. The rust converter I use turns black, even if you get it on paintwork, but need rust to work. As it is badly rusted I'd hit it with the rust converter, then leave it keeping an eye out for a spare in better condition. I wouldn't make another though, cos I wouldn't be able to match it. Chimney is missing. If it's easy to make one, I would try making one, in the meantime also keeping a lookout for a original replacement White control handles badly deteriorated I would try an make some suitable to replicate the originals. Motor has 80% plus paint intact, but stained from age and environment with some surface rust apparent on the magnet. Nickle plating is in near new condition on all plated parts Round hotplate style, ceramic based nichrome wire style heating element is in pristine condition but past experience tells me it's likely to be too fragile to remove. I'd leave all that as is. Try clean rust off magnet perhaps. replacement smokestack housing is rusted and will require repainting. Ahh, so it's a replacement. In that case I would treat and paint Wooden base is in very good condition but impregnated with grime. Clean and polish Original power cord is present but had non original plug end. I'd leave as is, unless you can find a replacement Lamp post is in need of solder to secure the round metal base. I'd resolder. I don't ever consider soldering, if done neatly, to affect the engine in anyway. Engine arrived with whistle port boss broken away from the boiler requring resoldering to repair. (bad packaging and impact during transit) As above Photos of this engine can be seen at http://www.cedesign.net/steam/10 . Have a fair go at it and then I'll describe its likely future fate and why. Best Steve[/quote] |
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| Griffin |
Thanks Steve for letting us all cast a critical eye over this engine.
Firstly it needs a thorough cleaning, then it will be easier to see the extent of wear on this engine. The heater I would leave well alone, as like you say it is to fragile to risk taking apart, and impossible to replace. I too would go with fabricating a new smoke stack to original specification. I would probably go with repainting the firebox, as the smokebox will need re-doing, It will stand out a mile if you don't Regarding the cast iron engine frame, that is a tough call, as the paint does not look bad. But as you say the magnet has some rust, so will need addressing. From the photo's the base does not look bad, but a dicision would be best after a good clean Another factor to consider is the condition of the engines it will be displayed with, for examle if they are all in A1 condition this one will look out of place if is not wearing it's best clothes. If nothing else this engine desives to have some treatment, purely on the grounds of it's rarity. Which ever route you choose, good luck and I look forward to the end results. |
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| mj |
l'd tend to agree with most other comments & say preserve whats already there as much as possible rather than replace/repaint. The only cautionary note would be the crumbly state of what looks like asbestos in the firebox surrounding the heating element. | ||||||
| Cedge |
Being that this post is in an off the main beaten path of the forum, I'll assume the majority of the responses have been made. Feel free to jump in with your thoughts even after I've posted the engine's future fate.
The little Jensen model 10 will join my own collection so it''s going to be in the company of some pretty well endowed engines. This fact colors my decision some, but it is not a major weight in the consideration process. The wooden base will recieve a good application of wood conditioning oils, but the varnished finish is in good confdtion and will only suffer cleaning with Murphy's oil soap and a bit of Old English almond oil to give it a warm glow. The engine's motor will be pretty much left as isSince the paint is original and close to 90% there, it's to be preserved and cleaned , with only sufficient effort to put it in top flight condition. Mechaincally the engine will only need a small timing adjustment All the plated surfaces will be cleaned and polished to their best possible shine. This will eleiminate some light hazing but retain any heavier marks from normal play. This has always allowed for the bestof both worlds, a good shine and retention of character. The fire box is missing paint well past my "40%" rule of thumb, so it will be getting a very careful stripping and new paint. Part of this decision is due to the need to repaint the stack housing. Snce it will have to be stripped, the rust removed and then repainted, It is going to make the rest of the firebox even more noticable. Nothing looks worse than nice fresh paint residing right next to the sort of damage the firebox paint is showing. Uniform texture and color and condition are the heavy weights in this choice. In for a penny, in for a pound on this area. The new smoke stack is a no brainer since it is to be a perfect match to the original. Sorry Roger... it gets painted black too...LOL. Great care will be needed to work with this machine since the heater will have to remain in the firebox the whole time. Small things like the power cord end and the white handles will be a mixed bag. The handles will be left alone if they do not lose the residual amount of material still clinging to them. The power cord will be refitted with an original and true to the era, bakelite end. The enegine will receive the minimum attention possible to make things harmonious yet faithful to the age of the engine. It will retain many of the battle scars but they will no longer hide under dirt and grime. The engine is 75 years old... it should have a few wrinkles. It's earned them. The various small repairs with solder are typical of any restoration and are considered part of steam engine husbandry. If it isn't in mechanically sound condition all the paint it the world won't make it run. The asbrestos sheeting is something I'm used to dealing with and is not the devilish threat it's been made out to be. Just keep it moist and bagged until its ready to go back in the engine. I don't chew it and I'm we'll past my days of inhaling recreational substances. The risk is acceptable if handled carefully. A note to Spokesman... These older Jensen engines with riveted boilers were definitely built to last. They've also become rather expensive to acquire in the past few years. The current line of Jensen Commercial / Collector series machines of today are still handmade from the same materials and using many of the same dies and tooling as this engine saw during its creation. Don't tell anyone, but I've got a very old meth heated black firebox Jensen model 75 coming available. It is all original, only missing its original meth burner. See?... I really am trying to make it easy for you and MM to become a Jensen collectors without compromising your personal honor....(evil grin) Best Steve |
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| IndianaRog |
Good compromise Steve...the Jensen 10 is in caring handsHi Steve,Well, I was curious how you were going to approach restoration of that piece. It will be a challenge refinishing the firebox without removing the heater...but I'm sure the end will justify the means. Glad you are keeping for the Gallery...it needs a showcase for sure. Press on...more photos when she's ready for the prom. Rog ps...a nickel stack would look so sweet though historically wrong!!! |
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| SPOKESMAN |
Nothing is impossible - its not like nailing a jelly to the wall!
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| Sandman |
Or slamming a revolving door.
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| tmuir |
I think that is the best that could be expect Cedge.
Got to have the engine running or its just no fun but keep as much original as possible. I did think when I said repaint smokestack and not firebox it would look a bit funny and after I had done that I may have changed my mind and repainted firebox aswell. Looking forward to the finished pictures |
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| oldstuff |
Rare piece of Jensen history you picked up there, Cedge! What's the timeline
when Jensen made the alcohol fired models? Which models were they? |
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| Cedge |
Tmuir...
I've always tried to keep things as close to original as possible and I really try to avoid repainting where possible. I've often gone to great pains to clean painted surfaces to get them as close to original color as possible, but i'm not obsessive about it. What I can't do is paint adjacent parts of the same color or finish and not do the whole job. I don't hesitate to polish bright works but I'll also accept a bit of pitting and scratches rather than go for fresh plating. Fresh plate is reserved for when the nickle has been polished or worn away by about 25-30% or has been chipped off leaving hard sharp edges which will eventually begin pealing away again. When I do retorations for others, I let them know that I intend to maintain the look and feel of an old engine thoughout the process. I do not offer a showroom new restoration. If they want to go that route, Im not their guy. It's much more difficult to restore while maintaining the character of the engine than to give it a full total face lift. Oldstuff Accepted wisdom is that the solitary meth fired Jensen model was only produced for a short period during the 1950's. Tom Sr. was never comfortable with the idea of possible fire dangers and decided to discontinue the model. Unofficial oral history has it that he destroyed quite a number of them and continued to do so anytime he could could secure one, even after he took them off the market. This particular model 75 was built with what is now the motor for our model 70 oscillator engine. The engine was rebirthed and designated as model 70 using electic heat. Then in 1961 Tom reintorduced the model 75 as the dry fuel heated sister to the model 25 engine. I've gotten some really confused information requests because of this snarled evolution. It's a rare piece in its own right and an interesting historical addition for any Jensen collection. Steve |