Archive for The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum The Original Unofficial Toy Steam Forum Established 2006 The biggest, most popular steam forum around! Accept NO imitations! We have a growing community of regular posting members who chat about all aspects of toy and model steam.          The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum Forum Index -> Technical tips, Details, Home Builds and Help Me!! tarbyonline Types of Oil Hello everyone, this is my first post so I hope it isn't a silly question (I've only really got into this now having owned a TE1A for 14 years!). The original oil that came with my engine has run out. At the moment I am using the Texaco engine oil we use totop up the car on all of the moving parts whilst I wait for some "steam" oil arriving in the post (trust me to pick a bank holiday weekend to start this!). Is engine oil ok to use on a temporary or long term basis, or should i stop using it immedietly. Itmay also be useful to know that the engine has only been fired about 20 times in its life and so is probably not beded in properly yet. Also, is there any preference in oil type/brand to improve performance? Thanks in advance Steven James Hi, and a big welcome to the forums. I hope you stick around. Yes, I just use normal car/tractor oil on mine, and they haven't failed on me yet. IMHO steam oil isn't really worth bothering with. It is good for trains though, to put in the water. Mamodman123 Use car engine oil! Any brand will do! You just aren't meant to use "thin" oil! Steam oil is really for the lubricators on the mamod locos and whatever else has them! IT tends to "stick" around for longer and makes port faces etc more steam tight I bought some steam oil for about 1.99 and its lasted nearly a year now and its only about 300ml. I get through the car oil like its going out of fashion Welcome to the forums! Enjoy your stay, Cheers MM tarbyonline Thanks Thanks for the quick reply guys! Looks like i will just use car oil then. Its £1.99 a litre in ASDA for the texaco stuff (plus i get staff discount) while i paid the same for about 200ml or something similar for steam oil! Also, thanks for the welcome. I hope to stay around and am keen to get this machine running perfectly and looking smashing (see my post in restoration forum) James Yep, you'll be fine using that Out of interest, is it solid fuel tablet or meths fired? Mamodman123 Re: Thanks tarbyonline wrote: Thanks for the quick reply guys! Looks like i will just use car oil then. Its £1.99 a litre in ASDA for the texaco stuff (plus i get staff discount) while i paid the same for about 200ml or something similar for steam oil! Yep thats fine! 1.99 is a bargain price tarbyonline James wrote: Yep, you'll be fine using that Out of interest, is it solid fuel tablet or meths fired? Its solid (i bought it new when i was 9!), but considering getting a meths burner anyway as i seems more appropiate and less new fangled in a steam engine! Am posting more details in restoration forum and should get some pics up in the next few days (already done a lot of cleaning) James Good good! Yes, meths is 100x better than tablets Mamodman123 James wrote: Good good! Yes, meths is 100x better than tablets Spot on! Solid fuel is pretty naff! Meths lasts way way longer tarbyonline the model i saw that inspired me to by my one all those years ago ran on meths so that has a lot to do with it as well. Gonna run on tablets for the time being (i've got 2 boxes ordered) as i have bigger priorities in the new parts department and am a bit strapped for cash at the mo. For example, the drive belt was in 3 pieces and im having fly wheel trouble (its spinning by itself - see post in restoration forum) SPOKESMAN I use engine oil SAE20W50 (Car oil! ), I use steam oil in my Arrow Boat. MTA Hi Steven, Firstly welcome to the forum! Engine oil etc. is good for bearings. As the lads have said, steam oil is for cylinders and lubricators. On the bigger stuff steam oil is used in mechanical lubricators which are driven off the valve gear and pumps the oil via the steam chest into the cylinders. Steam oil is best for cylinders as normal oil would emulsify too quickly and not provide good enough lubrication and the piston would wear the cylinder away Chris I bought a big thing of steam oil from Forest Classics. Didn't cost that much really (ok, several times more than car oil I guess), but even so still not that much and it will last me for ages. Seems to work fine, so I will stick with that I think. IndianaRog Re: Types of Oil tarbyonline wrote: Hello everyone, this is my first post so I hope it isn't a silly question (I've only really got into this now having owned a TE1A for 14 years!). The original oil that came with my engine has run out. At the moment I am using the Texaco engine oil we use totop up the car on all of the moving parts whilst I wait for some "steam" oil arriving in the post (trust me to pick a bank holiday weekend to start this!). Is engine oil ok to use on a temporary or long term basis, or should i stop using it immedietly. Itmay also be useful to know that the engine has only been fired about 20 times in its life and so is probably not beded in properly yet. Also, is there any preference in oil type/brand to improve performance? Thanks in advance Steven Hi Steven, Welcome to the liveliest toy steam forum out there...lots of help, lots of support for new steamers. In our small engines, regular automotive oil (20-30 weight) is fine for moving parts that don't come in contact with steam and even those that do contact steam. Unlike larger steam engines that need lubricators that feed a continual supply of specialized "steam oil" to the cylinders, our little engines are for the most part lubricated by the steam/water condensate itself. That said, many of us like that extra "protection/peace of mind" etc. of using a specialized steam oil on parts that DO come in contact with steam. These oils are sold under many names, but the principle is they literally "stick around" longer than auto type oil when in contact with steam. I have found the following firm to supply superb oils...I bought a quart of steam oil and a quart of pin/bearing/journal oil from them and it will likely last me for the next 10 years and I steam alot. Here is a link to the website of Green Velvet oils: http://www.steamenginelube.com/ It's a one man shop, but he gives superb service. One caustion...DO NOT put any oil inside the boiler itself thinking that will lubricate things internally. Oil put in a boiler turns to tar balls in the bottom, gums up sight glasses and generally makes a mess you want to avoid. If you have the type of cylinder where you cannot get oil between moving parts...squirt a bit of steam oil in the exhaust port and rotate the flywheel backwards...this will suck the oil into the cylinder area as well as slide valve area (if you have a slide valve). Hope this helps and welcome again, cheers, Roger Mamodman123 Re: Types of Oil IndianaRog wrote: tarbyonline wrote: Hello everyone, this is my first post so I hope it isn't a silly question (I've only really got into this now having owned a TE1A for 14 years!). The original oil that came with my engine has run out. At the moment I am using the Texaco engine oil we use totop up the car on all of the moving parts whilst I wait for some "steam" oil arriving in the post (trust me to pick a bank holiday weekend to start this!). Is engine oil ok to use on a temporary or long term basis, or should i stop using it immedietly. Itmay also be useful to know that the engine has only been fired about 20 times in its life and so is probably not beded in properly yet. Also, is there any preference in oil type/brand to improve performance? Thanks in advance Steven Hi Steven, Welcome to the liveliest toy steam forum out there...lots of help, lots of support for new steamers. In our small engines, regular automotive oil (20-30 weight) is fine for moving parts that don't come in contact with steam and even those that do contact steam. Unlike larger steam engines that need lubricators that feed a continual supply of specialized "steam oil" to the cylinders, our little engines are for the most part lubricated by the steam/water condensate itself. That said, many of us like that extra "protection/peace of mind" etc. of using a specialized steam oil on parts that DO come in contact with steam. These oils are sold under many names, but the principle is they literally "stick around" longer than auto type oil when in contact with steam. I have found the following firm to supply superb oils...I bought a quart of steam oil and a quart of pin/bearing/journal oil from them and it will likely last me for the next 10 years and I steam alot. Here is a link to the website of Green Velvet oils: http://www.steamenginelube.com/ It's a one man shop, but he gives superb service. One caustion...DO NOT put any oil inside the boiler itself thinking that will lubricate things internally. Oil put in a boiler turns to tar balls in the bottom, gums up sight glasses and generally makes a mess you want to avoid. If you have the type of cylinder where you cannot get oil between moving parts...squirt a bit of steam oil in the exhaust port and rotate the flywheel backwards...this will suck the oil into the cylinder area as well as slide valve area (if you have a slide valve). Hope this helps and welcome again, cheers, Roger Great tip Rog! The mamod locos are particularly difficult to lubricate inside the cylinders! steamgranny Sheesh!! You mean I went to all that extra expense of getting ‘proper’ steam oil delivered from Forest Classics & having to wait an extra week before firing up Fleischmann for first time, when I could have just nipped out to the garage??!! Ah well, at least I’ve got a nice big bottle that should last for ages………..unless the collection grows!!! Is there a difference in smell, as half the reason I do this is to get my steam fix? IndianaRog Alas Steamgranny, You did wait an extra week for naught...a dab of 30 weight oil for the car would have done the job on your cylinder/piston...but as noted, most of us use the proper "steam oil" probably out of guilt that we don't want to risk any damage...but until you get into bigger stuff, I think it might be unnecessary since steam itself is lubricating...BUT, I will do it none the less. Funny aside...my Fleischmann 122/3 which I got as a child in 1961 must have hundreds of hours of running time on it and I never oiled it until as an adult I rediscovered steam 4-5 years ago...of course ever since then I dutifully oil it with the steam oil on steamy places, other oil in routine moving parts. I guess I LIKE the process of oiling my engines ...gives me something to do while they are running. Enjoy those engines...they are a good balm for the soul as they do their simple thing so perfectly. cheers, Roger Chris Yes, oiling them when they are running is all a part of the fun. Think I like the idea of using steam oil whether I need to or not. tarbyonline The texaco havoline stuff im using is 15W40. Haven't got a clue what that means - is that ok? Mamodman123 tarbyonline wrote: The texaco havoline stuff im using is 15W40. Haven't got a clue what that means - is that ok? Thats they type of oil you put in a car according to the manufacturers spec IndianaRog tarbyonline wrote: The texaco havoline stuff im using is 15W40. Haven't got a clue what that means - is that ok? Tarby...the numbers mean on your Havoline oil that when it's cold, the oil will behave like a thinner, single grade (15 weight). When it's hotter outside, the oil will behave like a thicker, single grade (40 weight). Many years ago one would run 30 or 40 weight, single grade oil in their cars during the heat of the summer as it resists thinning out like water at high temps. In winter way back then, we'd revert to thinner stuff like 10 or 15 weight oil to improve ease of starting when oil wants to act like molasses. The oil companies somehow worked their magic and gave us multi weight (variable viscosity) oils like 15 W 40 that cover the winter and summer spectrum nicely without having to change oil just due to outdoors temp. As for our steam engines...15 W 40 will work fine for general lubrication or even as a steam oil, though the purist in me likes to use specific steam oil "just because" !!!! cheers, Rog Wallace Good info Rog To add to all this.... Tarbyonline, I too use 15W-40W. Over here that is classed as a general car engine oil. To give an idea, light machine oil/sewing machine oil, is about 5W (real thin), and gear oil that's typically used for manual gearboxes and diffs is around 80W-90W (very thick). We've even got John Deere Air Cooled engine oil at work, which is straight out 30W There is that many out there. But as Rog showed, engines can even run without oil For cars, of course it matters, but in toy steam, just some form of general oil will be fine. I wouldn't suggest it, but you'd even get away with using cooking oil steamgranny Chris wrote: Yes, oiling them when they are running is all a part of the fun. Think I like the idea of using steam oil whether I need to or not. Agreed! Definitely part of the fun Mamodman123 Not when it flicks on your mums table and won't come off Chris Thanks for the info Rog. We were taught that at school, and I was racking my brain for what those numbers meant but just couldn't dig it out of the archive (long forgotten memory). MamodFan use steam oil, it does not emulsify with the water (go white) and as has been said before it stays around on the parts for longer. It is a must on my mm twin and the singles becase the engine is directly above the burner which dries out the oil very quickly. i also like using it because it has the word STEAM in it SPOKESMAN Chris wrote: Yes, oiling them when they are running is all a part of the fun. Think I like the idea of using steam oil whether I need to or not. That always gaurantees a better run, plus I think its essential! tarbyonline IndianaRog wrote: tarbyonline wrote: The texaco havoline stuff im using is 15W40. Haven't got a clue what that means - is that ok? Tarby...the numbers mean on your Havoline oil that when it's cold, the oil will behave like a thinner, single grade (15 weight). When it's hotter outside, the oil will behave like a thicker, single grade (40 weight). Many years ago one would run 30 or 40 weight, single grade oil in their cars during the heat of the summer as it resists thinning out like water at high temps. In winter way back then, we'd revert to thinner stuff like 10 or 15 weight oil to improve ease of starting when oil wants to act like molasses. The oil companies somehow worked their magic and gave us multi weight (variable viscosity) oils like 15 W 40 that cover the winter and summer spectrum nicely without having to change oil just due to outdoors temp. As for our steam engines...15 W 40 will work fine for general lubrication or even as a steam oil, though the purist in me likes to use specific steam oil "just because" !!!! cheers, Rog Great post indiana! Now i know what the numbers mean. I just got the stuff it said in the car manual see . Got some steam oil ordered from modelenthusiasts on ebay (as the shipping works out cheaper with their ebay pricing than the "free" shipping on their website proper!), which is where my other parts are coming from. What weight would steam oil be roughly (just out of interest)? mc_mc tarbyonline wrote: Great post indiana! Now i know what the numbers mean. I think most people here would agree that IndianRog is a steam legend. I didn't know any of that stuff either. IndianaRog Quote: What weight would steam oil be roughly (just out of interest)? Without sounding too "techy"...most steam oil I have seen would tend toward the 80-90 weight range, similar to heavy gearbox oils...heavier stuff than you would use in a car which might use 50 weight maximum in hot weather. Steam Cylinder Oil is mfg. by very few refiners these days...Shell Oil being one of the remaining few and they sell a range of steam oils that use another viscosity measure altogether...Shell Valvata J for example is offered in ISO460, ISO680 and ISO1000 viscosities (another fancy word for weight or thickness). Generally for our small steam engines operating well under 150 PSI, the ISO460 is ideal and is the very stuff often bottled up by Wilesco, Mamod, Jensen and others in those little bottles for $5 USD (2.50 GBP) each. I personally found a maker of steam and general purpose oils here in the US, that I like a lot...a gent named Bill Pettijean who operates Green Velvet Oils and is well known here in the states among the folks who run garden sized steam locos. His website is a wealth of info on steam and other oils for those who want to know: http://www.steamenginelube.com/index.htm Bill is the type of guy who notifies you two years later that one of the oil formulas you bought from him "could" be showing signs of separation just sitting a shelf...and he would be happy to replace it free of charge. This offer made to me for a ONE quart bottle of compounded steam oil I bought !!! That bottle might have lasted me a lifetime and he didn't want it breaking down...he'd formulated a better replacement and in a word it was on the way...FREE of charge and shipping. I REALLY like folks like that!!! So I tell people to give his steam and pin-bearing-journal oils a try if for no other reason that it's made by a well respected man who is trying to serve the small steam industry. He also sells bottles as small as a pint if you desire. So Tarby, THAT is probably more oil stuff than you ever wanted to know. Perhaps someone from the English side can comment on a weight measure for steam oils I see referred to over there, a measure called Centistokes. Might be easier to use the right verbage in your local marketplace...I'm not familiar with the proper Centistoke number desired for steam oil. cheers, Rog tarbyonline Thanks IndianaRog. I like to know what im buying Im now much more informed and looking for somewhere i can get good steam oil for a reasonable price. Thanks again JensenSteamMan yea, just about all small air cooled engines (briggs&stratton, Kohler, Techumsah etc) all use 30wt (Pennzoil for me) from 30Degress on up. For super hot, like over 100degree then making the move to synthetic 30weight would be good. Synthetic is equal to regular oil unless you start moving into extreme comditions like very hot very or very high HP. On a Troybuilt roto-tiller we own I was changing the gearbox oil and the manual called for 140weight gear oil!! I called all over and basically strait 140 weight is impossibly to find/not made. Finally I called up a mechanicas shop that worked on mainly Troybuilts and said they had to "settle" for 90-140wt now I use the same oils as Roger. They are excellent. Soon, I will be buying a lifetime supply. You can "get by" with car oil but in the long long haul you will notice the different between engine with car oil vs with steam oil. Car oil is formulated to deal with the much higher temp, no water, acids from combustion, piston rings etc. I also doubt it sticks around like a good steam oil. Even long after a steaming the cylinder, chest, and rod still have a film you can feel. Just my 2cents Cheers, Casey SPOKESMAN Oil has become very hi-tech these days . . . . tarbyonline Just one more quick question. Would using 680 weight steam oil make much difference from using 460? I can get 680 cheap in bulk and was planning on bottling up what i don't need and flogging it on ebay! SPOKESMAN tarbyonline wrote: Just one more quick question. Would using 680 weight steam oil make much difference from using 460? I can get 680 cheap in bulk and was planning on bottling up what i don't need and flogging it on ebay! Try it out . . . . tarbyonline SPOKESMAN wrote: tarbyonline wrote: Just one more quick question. Would using 680 weight steam oil make much difference from using 460? I can get 680 cheap in bulk and was planning on bottling up what i don't need and flogging it on ebay! Try it out . . . . need to find a supplier of cheap bottles first! Reckon I can undercut most on postage as I can get a supply of cheap bubble envelopes. Have also some other stuff up my sleeve. Some of the markups for this stuff are huge! SPOKESMAN I know Ive seen some of the prices!!! JensenSteamMan SPOKESMAN wrote: Oil has become very hi-tech these days . . . . Yes it has!! I was reading an article the other day about choosing oil for very old 4-stroke engines, the requirements for those engines are so distant from what todays oils are formulated for (new cars) -Casey tarbyonline I hav'nt done all the negotiating yet and so prices could change (up or down) but how would £3.50 for a 100ml bottle (free postage) sound to people. As i say i am going to try and negotiate my supplier down and that is also assuming I can get the oil delivered over here for the same price as the mainland so prices could change. Forum users, of course will get discount! Chris 125ml from forest classics is £1.99, but then they charge £2 p&p, but they also do 250ml for £2.99. Mamodman123 Chris wrote: 125ml from forest classics is £1.99, but then they charge £2 p&p, but they also do 250ml for £2.99. Try and barter him down a bit then Graham-Jilly Hi -- we were using a bottle of oil supplied by Bettersounds and it l came with our very first SE2A. It was a light sewing machine oil, and because it was supplied by the 'experienced seller' we thought it was the correct oil to use. By the way Bettersounds is now clocks N gifts and he is "the appointed selling agent for Jensens in Australia" and it looks as if he might be including a bottle of jensen oil?? now with his purchases. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Jensen-Ste...PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ANYWAY --having read this thread and we have changed to a thicker steam oil which arrived with Charly. The improvement in the running of the engines has been notable and noticable. Much smoother running and more power. Maybe that also contributes to how the locos run?? Cheers Jilly-Graham tarbyonline Chris wrote: 125ml from forest classics is £1.99, but then they charge £2 p&p, but they also do 250ml for £2.99. Hmmm, I could always sell it for £1.75 with £1.75 post. Thats essentially what they are doing anyways! I just dont like hiding costs in postage tho. Chris Locos like a good squirt of steam oil. Get it behind the cylinders. Mamodman123 Chris wrote: Locos like a good squirt of steam oil. Get it behind the cylinders. Just dunk them in a tank of oil Mamodman123 tarbyonline wrote: Chris wrote: 125ml from forest classics is £1.99, but then they charge £2 p&p, but they also do 250ml for £2.99. Hmmm, I could always sell it for £1.75 with £1.75 post. Thats essentially what they are doing anyways! I just dont like hiding costs in postage tho. You could makes it look a bit cheaper Chris tarbyonline wrote: Chris wrote: 125ml from forest classics is £1.99, but then they charge £2 p&p, but they also do 250ml for £2.99. Hmmm, I could always sell it for £1.75 with £1.75 post. Thats essentially what they are doing anyways! I just dont like hiding costs in postage tho. Agreed, I was just pointing out that theirs was a similar price in total. tarbyonline Chris wrote: tarbyonline wrote: Chris wrote: 125ml from forest classics is £1.99, but then they charge £2 p&p, but they also do 250ml for £2.99. Hmmm, I could always sell it for £1.75 with £1.75 post. Thats essentially what they are doing anyways! I just dont like hiding costs in postage tho. Agreed, I was just pointing out that theirs was a similar price in total. Im a nicer guy tho!!!! The bottles are costing me about 50p at the moment. If the venture works tho I will be able to buy bulk and pass on the savings tho. Mind you, 100ml is gonna last a while for people! Perhaps selling in 50ml bottles would be better. old_timer I wouldn't go into this too big initially until you understand the true market potential. I followed closely the recommendation given by the manufacturer regarding oiling my first Mamod since it was originally purchased: and I must say she I've not come across a smoother running engine yet. Duckhams used to be my favourite because of the nice green colour Traditional motor car engine oil (the type suitable for cars built in the 1970s) costs about £5.00 for 5 litres! That's just 10p for 100ml! tarbyonline thats why my retail price is quite high. Im only initially gonna by a few litres then if there is no demand at least I havn't lost much (and have a lifetime supply of oil!) Must say that my engine is running much better with steam oil - the engine oil was lasting seconds before it disappeared it seems! Just gonna dip my toes as it where. If all it achieves is established traders lowering their prices to a realistic level then i will be happy JensenSteamMan Graham-Jilly wrote: Hi -- we were using a bottle of oil supplied by Bettersounds and it l came with our very first SE2A. It was a light sewing machine oil, and because it was supplied by the 'experienced seller' we thought it was the correct oil to use. By the way Bettersounds is now clocks N gifts and he is "the appointed selling agent for Jensens in Australia" and it looks as if he might be including a bottle of jensen oil?? now with his purchases. http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Jensen-Ste...PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ANYWAY --having read this thread and we have changed to a thicker steam oil which arrived with Charly. The improvement in the running of the engines has been notable and noticable. Much smoother running and more power. Maybe that also contributes to how the locos run?? Cheers Jilly-Graham Yes, the bottle that is with it is what Jensen ships with ever engine it ships out. Ya gotta love how those brand new engines shine! Cheers, Casey        The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum Forum Index -> Technical tips, Details, Home Builds and Help Me!! Page 1 of 1