VHT paint question and Smoky Roller Conversion

johnreid · VHT paint question and Smoky Roller Conversion

This might sound silly, but when you bake your parts, do you just lay them on a Cookie Sheet or do you suspend them with wires from the oven rack?
Getting ready to use some this weekend and am probably making too big a deal of it.

IndianaRog

John, thought I sent a PM to you on this...but might have fat fingered it!

I suspend mine on pipe fittings to get them up off the surface of the cookie sheet. Pipe fitting only touches the inside surface that won't be seen because it will leave an outline...if you set the parts right on the cookie sheet the paint at the edges will pancake.

Rog

johnreid

I bought some Black today, was looking for VHT brand and the Dupli-Color Rep was in the Parts store at the time, they are working in conjunction with VHT now. I got the Dupli-Color Caliper paint.
Did you paint inside and out? the inside of mine was quire rusty and I wire brushed it to bare metal. I am now wondering it the VHT is OK for direct contact with flames.

IndianaRog

John, I only painted the VHT on the exterior surfaces of the firebox, but at the end of the day, there isn't a more heat resistant paint out there, so I see no harm in painting the inside first, THEN the outside and finally bake setting the inside up on something like a pipe fitting or 3 to hold it off the cookie sheet.

For added protection to the firebox sides since I was going to meths in place of Esbit, I added three additional heat shields made of thin tin, inside the firebox, protecting the sides and front...these were set off from sides by the thickness of the nut on the brass screws (ie: added a second nut to hold the shield away a bit from the sides for air circulation. I mounted mine above the lower vent holes. Use caution to not have screws too long or they get in the way of the boiler if you opt to add heat shields.

The main concern I had that caused me to add the heat shields came from posts on here noting too much heat can deform the firebox sides and cause problems with the gears meshing properly, since one gear is actually screwed to the firebox side.

Not sure if my heat shields helped, but I have no gear meshing problems running on meths.

Rog

Nick

Rog,
I was thinking of adding heat shieds to my Jensen 60 to see if the Rustoleum copper paint holds up. Can you explain how to get the heat shield to stay in a different way, I don't quite understand what you mean.
Nick

IndianaRog

Nick,

On my old smoky conversion, I had no concern drilling holes in the firebox.

Picture a firebox heat shield to go INSIDE, about 3.5 inches wide and 2.5 inches high (estimate)...I just cut that from thin sheet steel with tin snips. Then I drilled 4 holes at the corners, matched those up with the EXTERIOR of the firebox, marked the holes with a Sharpie onto the firebox and drilled matching holes in the firebox. Then I took brass screws about 3/8" long and fed them thru the outside of the firebox, added a nut on the inside of the firebox, slipped on the heat shield over all four 3/8 inch screws and added the final nut to secure them in place. Effectively I created a double wall on the firebox with a 1/16 inch space between for air to circulate.

I did the above on both sides of the firebox and then the same on the front end of the firebox.. The only evidence I did that was a lot of brass screw heads on the firebox which I wanted anyhow after drilling out rivets.

NOW...on your Jensen 60 it might be a different story...you probably do NOT want to drill holes in the firebox sides or ends. The only option in my mind is suspend the shields, using the upper firebox edge to secure them in place and let them hang inside like draperies. Just don't cover the vent slots in the top of the firebox or the holes in the sides...those are needed for proper combustion.

Hope this helps.
Rog

Nick

How bad does VHT paint smell when baked in the oven. Will the smell fill the house and how long will it last?

IndianaRog

VHT curing in the oven WILL stink for the total 2 hours or so it's being cooked.

I did mine on a mild day in early Nov....opened the doors for a cross draft and ran the fan above the stove the entire time. I also did it when I knew my wife was to be out for several hours. The stink was gone by the time she returned, cookie sheet clean and put away.

Doing it in mid winter in Minnesota might be a bit more of a challenge...hope you have a good exhaust fan above the stove, not the type that just recirculates thru a charcoal filter.

johnreid

Mine is the recirculating type, more energy efficient. But no larger than the parts I plan on curing are I cant see how it could be that bad.

Graham-Jilly

it aint that bad mate baked them manny a time. they be a bit tough to eat tho

johnreid

All I have is the firebox for a Smoky Roller.
I will do the Boiler test first, and if the boiler is OK, I plan on doing the painting on Sunday, the temperatures are going to be higher and the house will be warm enough to paint.

tmuir

John VHT engine enamel will crazy a bit in direct contact with flames but still hold for a while.
VHT brake calliper paint will last longer and VHT fireproof paint is just that it will last indefinitely in contact with flames.
The VHT fireproof paint is actually a ceramic paint that was developed to paint afterburners on jet aircrafts so I think it should withstand some meths flames.

I also suspend my parts on bits of bent up wires.

Big parts will smell whilst baking but they don't stink too bad and the smell leaves pretty quickly after removing them from the oven.

Wallace

John, I generally don't hang any painted parts in the oven.

Just sit them on the rack, making sure the bit that is making contact with the rack is hidden when put back together (e.g. bottom of firebox).

Like Rog, I waited for the missus to be out for a while, then to make sure I lit some newspaper in a metal bowl near the backdoor to mask the smell (blamed it on bushfire or neighbours doing something).

The smell can hang a while in the oven if it is fan forced so keep it running with door open after baking

Finally I saw you asking about normal paint vs heat in another thread (I can't find it).

On my spraypainting mates recomendation, I painted my MEC1 firebox with normal enamel paint. Ok, not quite normal, but a epoxy enamel rustproof paint (he suggested normal enamel).

He said as long as I bake it, it will hold up to the heat.

It did, no worries.

You will find any VHT paint that is meant for use on header pipes/extractors will easily withstand meths or esbit flames.

I used to do up cars, and that's what I would use. It seems strange, with white painted header pipes, they would get glowing red hot but when cooled, they would be white, paint unaffected.
I used VHT brand (ie, not just classed as VHT, but that was the brand name)

johnreid

The paint I bought is Ceramic Caliper Paint The VHT brand isnt available locally, but as I said the factory rep told me that the paint I bought was made in conjunctio n with VHT, I wonder if there wasnt a buy out.

gavsr70

tmuir

johnreid

I sprayed the Firebox for my Smoky this morning.
I painted all of the Green parts but the boiler yesterday and all turned out well except the scuttle. I had cleaned and wore brushed it then washed with both alcohol and Acetone before painting, but the paint is peeling off of the Scuttle. I guess that I will have to sand it down to bare metal before repainting.
The print is so small on the can and now I am wondering how long it needs to cure before baking.

johnreid

Any place that I have painted over the Wilesco Paint with Rustoleum brand paint, the original paint has started to peel. I took the scuttle to bare metal and now notice that the headstock is acting the same way. Thank God for Dremel wire brushes as it looks like I am going to need to remove all paint.
Still cant make our the label on the VHT for how long to let it dry before baking, bad eyes are a nuisance.

IndianaRog

John, bummer that the Rustoleum paint affected the Wilesco paint

I have seen that affect with certain car paints, must be some solvent in the Rustoleum that is attacking the Wilesco paint.

At this point you are doing what's needed, removing all and starting over. You might try liquid paint remover...I used it a few times on my Wilesco boiler when I scratched the green paint and had to re-do it.

For what it's worth...I have three brands of high temp paint on hand and here is their curing instructions (with magnifying glass in hand):

Dupli-color 1200 deg. F ceramic paint
- dries to touch in 15-20 min. (it doesn't say, but assume this is the minimum waiting period before oven curing)
- cure 300 deg. F in oven for 2 hours
OR
- cure 400 deg. F in oven for 1.5 hours
OR
- cure 600 deg. F in oven for 1 hour

=========

Plasti-Kote 1500 deg. F silicone resin paint
- allow 60 min air dry
THEN
- cure 650 deg. F in oven for 60 min. (non household oven!)
- curing must be done within 8 hours of paint application

=========

VHT brand 2000 Deg. F silica-ceramic header paint
- allow 15-30 min air dry
THEN
- cure at 250 deg. F for 30 min/let cool for 30 min
THEN
- cure at 400 deg. F for 30 min/let cool for 30 min
THEN
- cure at 600 deg. F for 30 min/let cool for 30 min
(note...my oven only goes to 550 deg. F...so l let it cook at that temp for 60 min in this 3rd of 3 curing steps.

=========

I personally think the VHT instructions are the most vigorous for curing and I used that paint myself on the firebox and engine frame. I used ACE hardware satin hunter green on all the green bits and Rustoleum satin black on the headstock and front smokebox area that presses onto front of boiler. The ACE and Rustoleum did NOT get oven curing as they are away from the worst heat.

Not sure why your Rustoleum caused a reaction in the Wilesco paint...either your Rustoleum differs from mine or the Wilesco paint was different between our two engines.

Hope this helps,
Rog[/b]

johnreid

I will go ahead and cure the Firebox tonight then.
Who knows, I think that the Wilesco Paint might be the culprit reacting with the thinner in the Rustoleum and reacting with it.
I kept hearing something rattling within the boiler and thought it might be solder, might be some Lime, and shook till a couple of plastic Toy Swords came out. I think it was played with as a non steam toy.
I have lots of time.
Thanks for copying the instructions, the can I have is shiny where the instructions are and even with a magnifying glass I couldnt make it out, macular degeneration combined with Fuchs Corneal Dystrophy does that. My eyesight is a problem at times, I am OK for far away, but my nearsightedness is gone. My arms arent long enough to read those cans.

IndianaRog

John...happy to be of service...hope the paint stays put next time around!!

Wallace

John I don't know what the Rustoleum paint is, but if it is acrylic and the original paint is enamel, then that's why you would have got the paint stripper effect

johnreid

Lessons learned of all the places that sell paint, the only ones that had the Black and green ( no Burgundy

) the only brand UI could find was Rustoleum.
I have stripped the parts and have started the repainting process. I have two colors on the boiler as the front is going to be black and the boiler itself will be green so I think I need to give the first color a good 72 hours to cure before putting masking tape on it to paint the second color.
I baked the high temp paint ( Dupli Color 1200 degree ) for two hours at 300 and did not remove from the oven till it cooled, so I feel that it is cured.
There were two colors of green on the Smoky, wonder if it had been repainted before?
Once the painting is done I will partially assemble it and determine the parts needed, order them in early Feb and by March it should be up and running.

IndianaRog

Sounds like you are making good progress now John...when you mention two different colors of green on the Old Smoky you got, I bet part of it was a repaint that was incompatible with the Rustoleum...such is life, hard to anticipate such a thing. Glad the curing went without issue.

Nick

Do you have any pictures of the progress?

johnreid

Not really, all there is are a bunch of parts. The front of the boiler/ headstock area is black and the Firebox is black, all of the other metal parts are green, excepting the boiler itself as I stripped my green paint off this morning. I will try to take some pictures later if you want to see a bunch of parts.

Edited to add photo

The Headstock will be Gloss black, and the Firebox is Satin VHT, the boiler will be Gloss Green, and in fact WAS green this morning, but there when I went to strip the headstock, some of the boiler paint was damaged so I stripped all of it and will have to wait till the black fully cures before trying to mask the black so I can paint the green.
I think that the most time consuming part is waiting for the pant to cure , paint that isnt fully cured will come off with the masking tape. I also made that goof on this project too

IndianaRog

It's coming along well John...you are spot on NOT to rush the post spray/curing steps...handle too early or mask too early and as you have seen it sends you back to square one.

thanks for the pics,
Rog

johnreid

I actually got to speak to my paint friend, who is going to Florida for who knows how long, he says to let it wait a full week before even thinking about using masking tape and suggested that I investigate heat curing the Rustoleum. Gloss in time should be the hardest surface, but till it is fully cured it is very soft.
The black on the boiler had been repainted earlier in the day so the Panavice is being used to let it not touch anything.

johnreid

Here is what I am told, regular Rustoleum, 2 to 3 hours at 180 degrees for a hard cure. I was told this by a model maker, I am thinking about trying it. I am sure that all parts of the Smoky are subjected to temperatures close to that. I am looking for opinions, if I decide to do this, it will be done tomorrow.

Nick

John,
It looks like you are taking the right steps at restoring this one. I can't wait to see the final results.

Wallace

Coming along nicely John

Nick

Do you have any updates for us John?

johnreid

It is so exciting, watching the paint dry. Did not bake the non VHT so am waiting till the first of the week to mask for the Green on the boiler.

Then it will be the long wait, I have to wait till Feb to order the parts, and then wait to get them. It will probably be April before I get this assembled. Unless I end up buying something Steam related, then it will take longer

IndianaRog

John, if you are not aware, there is a type of painter's masking tape that is blue in color...sold in any place that sells painting supplies...I believe it releases more easily when pulled off, reducing chances of ruining the recently applied finish beneath.

johnreid

Generally I apply the Masking tape to a piece of glass and remove it, sometimes I do this twice, before applying to a piece for masking. The Rustoleum just seems so sensitive and thus I decided to give it the full cure time.
I have Drafting Tape too which is a less sticky Masking Tape designed as to not rip vellum or drafting paper.
After stripping the paint after it peeled, then repainting and two days later having to strip again due tot he Masking tape, I have decided to err on the side of caution.
Also, the temperature in the house is low so more time is needed for curing.
On Top of that, an antenna was literally blown to pieces in a wind storm so I have been busy arranging another 200 foot climb and procuring a free antenna, got a big galvanized one this time it will withstand the elements. Saturday will be another tower day, my ex co-worker has agreed to do the climb.

IndianaRog

John, I always speed up a paint drying session by using a lightbulb inside a box suspended over the item drying...raises the temp inside by about 50 degrees and seems to cut the time in half to a good hard (non oven) cure.

My youngest once had a snake, so I recently started using the snake's heat lamp...an orange looking bulb like the kind they used to keep hamburgers warm with. It's even better than the plain incandescent bulb I previously used.

johnreid

I got the Boiler painted the rest of the way, I will start on assembly tomorrow if something doesnt happen to delay me.
The Boiler is Green, Headstock is black and the Firebox is VHT flat black. I believe that once it is assembles, very little of the Firebox actually shows so the flat in comparison to the gloss sholdnt be a problem, at least I hope not.

IndianaRog

It's lookin' the part John...you are getting there!!

Mamodman123

Thats looking great John!

The perfect choice of green too

. Can't wait to see this one finished

Les

Looking nice.

Nick

Even if the flat black does show, it will actually add to the piece as the real ones aren't really that glossy. I prefer the flat black look.

Kevin Klein

So far so good, I want so see how it comes out.

johnreid

I am really posting these to kind of keep track of my own progress, plus mistakes might get pointed out

I forgot to paint the flywheel so my progress has been halted after this point. I am assembling the Firebox and engine.

Wallace

Looking better each time you post pics

IndianaRog

John, that gear that attaches to the sides of the firebox has 2 or 3 tiny washers under it to properly align that gear with the small gear built into the flywheel.

It's a fiddly thing to get those washers right...I actually pitched the originals and used some other washers on hand to get the combination of thicknesses so things were exactly where I wanted them...you will just have to mess with it til everything works and the gear tied to the left rear wheel can mesh and unmesh properly when you flick the little lever.

It is key to get that gear spacing right to maximize function and minimize the characteristic gear clatter these are known for.

Lookin' really good so far...amazing how paint can make such a big difference.

Rog

Nick

That's what I like about these forums, I can see mistakes before I make them myself, or can share my mistakes.

johnreid

I can already tell that the gears will be a potential problem as I needed to put a washer between the gear and the Firebox too as no matter what I did the gear would not turn freely as it was rubbing the firebox. I hope to fiddle with the gearing before I resolder the steam line back on, I do not want to be taking that on and off a bunch.
The Flywheel got green paint, I hope to come up with some brushable Red before I am done and I will give the Flywheel a bit of red trim.

Nick

Any pics of the flywheel?

johnreid

THis shows the flywheel, and progress to date. The remains of the whistle turned into dust and the innard workings of the Safety Valve did too, too much corrosion.
I dont think that I am that far off from a test firing, but in the act of installing the boiler I scratched the Green paint a bit so I sprayed some into a small glass jar and used a brush to touch up. I think I will let the paint fry and work on other parts while that is going on. I have the wheels and the steering chain to mess with. Plus I need parts, lets hope I can get them in early February.

IndianaRog

John, coming together nicely. I too scratched my painted boiler during the first attempt at inserting it back in the firebox. It was bad enough I removed it, stripped it again and resprayed.

Once the second boiler spray effort was cured enough, I tried something that worked well at avoiding scratching the paint again...I took Postit notes and carefully ringed the boiler with them in an area of about 1/2 inch where the scratching had occured...THEN after it was finally locked into the firebox and the top screw secured...I carefully removed the Postit notes...worked beautifully.

Les

Can't wait to see it finished now.

johnreid

It is now as far as I can go till I get some parts, the lever that is used to engage and disengage the gear broke off so I will have to do some disassembly once I get that part if I can find it. For now it is a Shelf display, but by the end of February I hope to have it where I can steam it. And hopefully have a bit more brass bling on it too.

rangerssteamtoys

Nice piece you have coming to gether John. can wait to see the end result. I have not worked on my wilesco steam wagon much. Not near finished. Oh well, its one of those "to do" things

johnreid

I still have the steering mechanism too, it is non functional but I think there were a few missing parts there too.
A little bit at a time from here on with this one. Till then it doesnt look all that bad on the shelf.
Esbit fired engines are for warmer weather firing anyhow, that stuff sticks up the house.
I have sent four emails to Yesteryear asking for some prices, I guess that the only way to find out is to either order, or buy the $10.95 catalog. I might investigate some of the UK sellers a they seem to list a lot of spare parts.

IndianaRog

John, it's looking the part for sure. On small parts/light weight packages...you can't beat the UK suppliers...I have had parts delivered in 5 days flat for $5 USD postage cost...cheaper and faster than chasing them down in the US.

Nick

I didn't realize you were that far already.

It's turning out very nice.

johnreid

The clutch lever just broke off yesterday, once I had it almost complete and I now realize that I have to remove th boiler to change it. Not something I look forward too as the Steam line is soldered and so close to paint and each time I mess with the boiler the paint gets messed up. I fear tha once the parts come I will have to take it almost all apart again.
These things are not built to be worked on, I believe that the one that is from kit form would be so much easier for a project like this.

johnreid

I decided to prop the rear wheels off of the surface, borrow the whistle from the D10 and give it a run. The safety valve popped off earlier than I thought so I gave the flywheel a spin, its like the brakes were on, again I try, and all I got was resistance. I drained the water and gave it a good look.
I check the instructions for any missed steps and notice that the instructions call for an oiler on top of the steam chest, guess what mine didnt have one, all that is there is the broken remains of the threads from it and it is pressure tight, I assume that no steam is entering the cylinder. I attempted to drill it out and the drill just wants to drift onto the steam chest si I am assuming that with my limited tool inventory it can not be drilled out. Sooo, I guess I am really at a point where the project is going to be a shelf item. A new cylinder is $58.
So what now, Ebay?

Les

Is there another type of oiler you can use??

Nick

I think he needs to drill it out 1st.

I was really looking forward to the completion of this one.

johnreid

IF I could get it out I could even do without an oiler, no steam enters the cylinder. I have been really scratching my head on this one, I never even thought that anything was amiss. When I first got it, the cylinder and valve were more or less locked up, I soaked them and managed to free them up. However anything I try doesnt seem to work here, I wonder if the oiler isnt of a harder material than the Steam Chest, or if the previous owner hadnt just broke off a screw in the hole to plug it.
Really discouraged right now. I am not ordering any parts etc till I figure this one out.
This is the risk one takes when he buys things on the cheap.

Les

Know anyone with a minidrill and a lot of patience.

Nick

Yea, you buy them cheap, but it ends up costing more than a working one.

Les

Or send it to Reid and he have a go at sorting it out,

Kevin Klein

I hope yopu can get the troubles cured, it would be nice to see it run with its new look. On mine the fly wheel was stiff after fastening the engine to the firebox, a washer placed between the engine mount and fire box took care of that.

When I painted the boiler I masked it off with 1/8" automotive stripe making tape and painted the gold bands, a little green came off in a few small areas but touched up well. Do a test with some tape under the boiler to see if the paint will stay then you might want to paint the bands. Looking good so far!

My Old Smokey is waiting for a re do now.

IndianaRog

Bummer John...seems that engine came with a few more gremlins than mere mortals should have to contend with. Hope you get it sorted. I have heard of tools called "Easy Out"...like a tap but designed to remove broken off screws in engine blocks and the like.

Til you figure out a solution, perhaps a little WD-40 left on the threads will help later if you get an extraction tool.

johnreid

I am planning on cutting a screw slot with my dremel and a cut off disk. as I said before I can not get a drill to work, and a easy out requires a hole. Screw extractors work like opposite hand taps, so as one tightens the extractor it causes torque in the direction to back the screw out. I find it odd that there is no hole in the broken off piece, arent oilers supposed to be hollow? It should have been a leak as opposed to cutting off the steam completely.

IndianaRog

John, if the hole has solid metal in it, someone definitely put a screw in and cut it off (or snapped it off). It's such a shame when these toys get abused in a former life, but that is our lot when we buy off eBay...pics can hide terrible abuse.

My "Forgotten 35" Jensen was just such a surprise...riveted brass boiler gets the ends cut out and replaced with pounded in steel disks sealed with epoxy. Oh the Humanity!!

Les

johnreid

I actually broke off two of those cut off disks but I did get it out and the screw had a pointed tip, I am thinking a set screw. The metal was dark and I bet it is a much harder steel than any other thing on this Smokey. I now can only hope the threads are correct for the Wilesco part that belongs there. The Steam chest is scuffed up but really it is no big deal.
The Clutch part broke off, and a couple of other parts seem to have fallen victim to rust.
Is the gear that has two spokes on it that engage with the wheel supposed to be like one part? The two spokes spin freely and I do not see how it can propel the Smokey unless those two fingers turn with the gear. I think I am going to need to order it too.

Apologies are in order I guess, I get discouraged at times. I am not wanting to drag all of my problems here as this is my escape as my projects are therapy against troubles.

Mamodman123

John that looks superb my friend!

Give yourself a pat on the back for that one!

Much much of an improvement!

johnreid

TA
I am in need of encouragement, this one has been one little problem after another, many I have not documented here. I know that I should never say never, but I am currently thinking that I will never buy anything Wilesco again, unless it is some workshop accessories.

Mamodman123

Les

Stilldrillin

Just a little hint, for the next time a hole needs to be drilled into that sort of position, without wandering.

Drill the correct size hole through a piece of !/8" (or so) flat steel strip.

Position this securely over the hole position.
It will then act as a jig to hold the drill, and keep it from wandering off line.

Sandman

johnreid

Not much room if one doesnt want to unsolder and disassemble the whole thing, but a stellar idea, great tip. I used to have regular jigs made up for some equipment that I used to work on, just for that very purpose. A Center Drill is good too, but I have none that small.