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mogogear


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swift Fox wrote:
Shame we can't stick the other thread up here too as there was a lot of good info in it.  

Anyway i have another question about the coil type boilers and that is if you can use other materials besides copper such as stainless steel and if it makes much difference?


SwiftFox--You might throw a note to tony (tmuir) and see if he can either incorporate it or re-sticky it!
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Jean-Yves


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mogogear wrote:
Swift Fox wrote:
Shame we can't stick the other thread up here too as there was a lot of good info in it.  

Anyway i have another question about the coil type boilers and that is if you can use other materials besides copper such as stainless steel and if it makes much difference?


SwiftFox--You might throw a note to tony (tmuir) and see if he can either incorporate it or re-sticky it!


There are many examples of coils made of copper and brass, and a few with glass (more exactly Pyrex or equivalent). They all work. I'm convinced that stainless steel is good (and maybe better) but I have no tube of small diameter to check.
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Swift Fox


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mo, i've sent Tony a message so we'll see what can be done as i think a few of us would like to see that thread back up here again.

Jean, thanks for that reply and i did see your experiments with glass tubing on your website which was impressive. I'd be interested to see if someone does make a coil from stainless steel tubing to see how it compares with other metal, i havn't got any stainless tubing myself to try.
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Roly Williams


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swift Fox wrote:
Mo, i've sent Tony a message so we'll see what can be done as i think a few of us would like to see that thread back up here again.

Jean, thanks for that reply and i did see your experiments with glass tubing on your website which was impressive. I'd be interested to see if someone does make a coil from stainless steel tubing to see how it compares with other metal, i havn't got any stainless tubing myself to try.

Even more interesting would be a whole boat made entirely of glass Any glass blowers out there?
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Timonade


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean-Yves wrote:
mogogear wrote:
Swift Fox wrote:
Shame we can't stick the other thread up here too as there was a lot of good info in it.  

Anyway i have another question about the coil type boilers and that is if you can use other materials besides copper such as stainless steel and if it makes much difference?


SwiftFox--You might throw a note to tony (tmuir) and see if he can either incorporate it or re-sticky it!


There are many examples of coils made of copper and brass, and a few with glass (more exactly Pyrex or equivalent). They all work. I'm convinced that stainless steel is good (and maybe better) but I have no tube of small diameter to check.


Stainless steel (or what ever metal for that matter) can't be better, as copper is the best heat conductor.
Sure engines of different materials work, but efficiency is at stake here.
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Last edited by Timonade on Wed May 11, 2011 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Daryl Canada


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean-Yves wrote:
mogogear wrote:
Swift Fox wrote:
Shame we can't stick the other thread up here too as there was a lot of good info in it.  

Anyway i have another question about the coil type boilers and that is if you can use other materials besides copper such as stainless steel and if it makes much difference?


SwiftFox--You might throw a note to tony (tmuir) and see if he can either incorporate it or re-sticky it!


There are many examples of coils made of copper and brass, and a few with glass (more exactly Pyrex or equivalent). They all work. I'm convinced that stainless steel is good (and maybe better) but I have no tube of small diameter to check.


I have made engine tubes (not coil) from SS that worked fine. The problem is to bend them in that tight a coil.
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mogogear


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In genera theory I have to agree with Timo based on heat conductivity  information I have seen on different metals ?( copper- brass- stainless- steel etc) Aluminum came closest if I remember to copper ....

Daryl- J-Y

Has aluminum tube been used?? I know nothing about annealing ( or if it is poosible ) or bending Al tube?
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Daryl Canada


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mogogear wrote:
In genera theory I have to agree with Timo based on heat conductivity  information I have seen on different metals ?( copper- brass- stainless- steel etc) Aluminum came closest if I remember to copper ....

Daryl- J-Y

Has aluminum tube been used?? I know nothing about annealing ( or if it is poosible ) or bending Al tube?


You are right Timo, but, (there is always a but) more heat is not always the solution to building a good engine that makes it's best power. It is true that in some engine designs it is hard to get enough heat into the boiler. It is usually easy to get enough heat into a coil engine. The hard part in most engines is maintaining the correct temperature. Too cold=won't run or poor power. Too hot=poor power then stop from burnout when the boiler goes dry. There seems to be a "best" temperature for most engines. Credit to Jean-Yves for the "best temperature" info. Finding the best temperature and maintaining it is the tricky part.

I would encourage anyone to build a SS coil engine and I think it could be worth the effort. Might not work any better than copper but I'm reasonable sure it would work as well and it sure would look nice. I think no less than 3/16ID tubes up 1/4ID might make for a better test.

I did a bit of a read on bending and annealing aluminum. Notes about all the different grades and the narrow temperature band between correct for annealing and melting scared me away. I often use aluminum for pipes for the weight saving. Modest bends are not usually a problem without annealing. Aluminum should work fine for a coil if you could bend it that tight but at 500F and with the vibration it might not last too long but I would like to see a boiler type engine made from aluminum.  

I had an idea in my head for a coil bending die. Is there anyone who is good with a lathe that would like to give it a try?
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Jean-Yves


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Copper, aluminum, brass and others Reply with quote

Timonade wrote:
Jean-Yves wrote:
mogogear wrote:
Swift Fox wrote:
Shame we can't stick the other thread up here too as there was a lot of good info in it.  

Anyway i have another question about the coil type boilers and that is if you can use other materials besides copper such as stainless steel and if it makes much difference?


SwiftFox--You might throw a note to tony (tmuir) and see if he can either incorporate it or re-sticky it!


There are many examples of coils made of copper and brass, and a few with glass (more exactly Pyrex or equivalent). They all work. I'm convinced that stainless steel is good (and maybe better) but I have no tube of small diameter to check.


Stainless steel (or what ever metal for that matter) can't be better, as copper is the best heat conductor.
Sure engines of different materials work, but efficiency is at stake here.


I don't want to be rude, but my English is not good enough to allow me to be tactful.
1- What we call aluminum is generally an alloy of which the real name is duralumin. Pure aluminum is rare because not strong. It is easy to bend without thermal treatment though the behavior of duralumin is particular. To get it soft the solution is not annealing. It is tempering. (I'm sure it will be an amazing discovery for some of you.)
2- I'm convinced that stainless steel could be as good as copper to build a pop-pop engine. I have no coil engine made of stainless steel. Nevertheless I have some engines made of stainless steel. One of them is a very simple one not to say the simplest one. Only one pipe (inner diameter 18.1mm=23/32") with its upper end closed. No additional volume. The closed end is heated and used as boiler. I run this engine every time I have a visitor interested in pop-pop science. And it always works. I use to say that any pipe closed at its upper end can be used as a pop-pop engine provided it is long enough. It is only a matter of heating power.
3- Good conductivity is not a requirement to get a performing engine. Look at Slater's ones. The tubes are plastic straws. And look at Daryl's ones which are the best engines I know. Most of them use brass.
4- Use copper, and thick copper for the boiler if you want. There is no problem at this level. But prefer brass or aluminum (dural) for the pipes.
5- If you use copper tubes the performances will be better with thin walls (for the same inner diameter) because thick wall involves undesired longitudinal heat conductivity.
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mogogear


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Roly Williams:Is there an optimum length for the pipes, between coil and water?



Jean-Yves  /Daryl- this important question never was answered unless I have I have overlooked it.. Is there a ratio? or some such?
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Stoker


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mogogear wrote:
Quote:
"Roly Williams:Is there an optimum length for the pipes, between coil and water?



Jean-Yves  /Daryl- this important question never was answered unless I have I have overlooked it.. Is there a ratio? or some such?



Actually, this question was answered ... last year in the Technical Tips Forum thread on pop pop boats. Here is what Daryl had to say about that on May 18th 2010:

" Correct tube length is usually about 62 x the tube ID for the "unheated part". This is not exact science. Longer rarely hurts other than a slight reduction in power but too short can cause steam bursts and loss of water in the tubes or failure to start. "

Of course there is much, much more info there as well, so go to here to access it:

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about29385.html


I have recenly PM'd Tony (tmuir) to ask if there is any way that thread can be brought over here to this sticky. I was repeatedly asking that the info be saved last year during the course of that thread. So far the best I've been able to do is to bookmark it in my favorites!
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mogogear


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Stoker for your Scholarly work!!!
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Jean-Yves


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stoker wrote:
mogogear wrote:
Quote:
"Roly Williams:Is there an optimum length for the pipes, between coil and water?



Jean-Yves  /Daryl- this important question never was answered unless I have I have overlooked it.. Is there a ratio? or some such?



Actually, this question was answered ... last year in the Technical Tips Forum thread on pop pop boats. Here is what Daryl had to say about that on May 18th 2010:

" Correct tube length is usually about 62 x the tube ID for the "unheated part". This is not exact science. Longer rarely hurts other than a slight reduction in power but too short can cause steam bursts and loss of water in the tubes or failure to start. "

Of course there is much, much more info there as well, so go to here to access it:

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about29385.html


I have recenly PM'd Tony (tmuir) to ask if there is any way that thread can be brought over here to this sticky. I was repeatedly asking that the info be saved last year during the course of that thread. So far the best I've been able to do is to bookmark it in my favorites!


I confirm the ratio Length/inner diameter=approx 62, the length being the one from the upper point (of the bend) and the nozzle. This is valid for coil and rigid engines. Not for diaphragm engines. For diaphragm engines due to the hysteresis brought by the diaphragm the ratio can be reduced down to approx 25.
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Jean-Yves


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]...You are right Timo, but, (there is always a but) more heat is not always the solution to building a good engine that makes it's best power. It is true that in some engine designs it is hard to get enough heat into the boiler. It is usually easy to get enough heat into a coil engine. The hard part in most engines is maintaining the correct temperature. Too cold=won't run or poor power. Too hot=poor power then stop from burnout when the boiler goes dry. There seems to be a "best" temperature for most engines. Credit to Jean-Yves for the "best temperature" info. Finding the best temperature and maintaining it is the tricky part.
[/quote]

The temperature is a consequence of heating, cooling and mechanical power. What matters is the heating power. For every engine there is a "heating power window". Inside this window the engine runs. Below the low limit though boiling temp can be reached the engine doesn't vibrate. Above the high limit it is as described above by Daryl. On some engines the window is very narrow. On my test bench with electrical heating this has been clearly observed. On coil engines the window is generally very wide. Guus and I (separately) heated coil engines up to red cherry. It means that they ran betwwen 100°C and 800°C (212F to 1472F).
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must add that at 800°C the mechanical power was not visibly more than at 100°C or 110°C
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