The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum
The Original Toy Steam Forum
Established 2006
The biggest, most popular global steam forum around! Accept NO imitations!
We have a growing community of regular posting members who chat about all aspects of toy and model steam.
 
FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Usergroups :: Join! (free)
Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in



Chat Safe Rules

The free forums are now under new ownership, a full announcement will be made shortly
Putt Putt Boats & Engines-Talk,Build,Tips & How To
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 17, 18, 19, 20  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum Forum Index -> Steam Launches and Boats
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you missed the video:
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic83935-0-0-asc-.php
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daryl Canada


Junior Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 333

FLAGS
Location: Victoria B. C. Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the tubes not fully submerged so that they can suck air?
_________________
GOT A QUESTION?   Answer...$1.00.        
Answers requiring thought...$2.00.  
Correct answers...$5.00.  
DUMB LOOKS ARE STILL FREE.
       My Youtube Channel          http://www.youtube.com/user/PuttPutt4video     
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's right, the engine sucks in both water and air.

That proofs my theory that in high temperature engines oscillation has to takes place in the tubes instead of the boiler, because if the air got into the boiler it would have acummulated to a point that the engine just stops, like regular engines.
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daryl Canada


Junior Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 333

FLAGS
Location: Victoria B. C. Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,

Very interesting.

"That proofs my theory that in high temperature engines oscillation has to takes place in the tubes instead of the boiler,"

Absolutely correct.

" because if the air got into the boiler it would have accummulated to a point that the engine just stops, like regular engines"

That does not seem to be the case. When measuring the water left in a good engine after running it is a very small amount, not enough to even partially fill the boiler. Measuring is tricky because if you let the engine cool in the water it will suck water back in and if you remove the engine from the water when it is running it is hard to capture what is left. For example engines without boilers like coil engines run just fine as they build an air/gas/steam bubble between the pipes as a substitute for a boiler. There is much on this subject from Jean-Yves at  
http://eclecticspace.net/index2.php?rub=poppop

Most important, to develop good thrust, which is the objective, the engine needs to produce a solid "water piston" oscillating in the tubes so the tubes have to be fully submerged when running. and not sucking or blowing air. The condensation or collapse part of the cycle  I found to be the hardest to accommodate.

There is  another interesting effect when though it appears that it is blowing air out the tubes it is sometimes steam bursts that can produce considerable power above normal. Sometimes caused by overheating or pipes that are too short, all efforts to make an engine run like this always so far proved fruitless.
_________________
GOT A QUESTION?   Answer...$1.00.        
Answers requiring thought...$2.00.  
Correct answers...$5.00.  
DUMB LOOKS ARE STILL FREE.
       My Youtube Channel          http://www.youtube.com/user/PuttPutt4video     
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl Canada wrote:

That does not seem to be the case. When measuring the water left in a good engine after running it is a very small amount, not enough to even partially fill the boiler. Measuring is tricky because if you let the engine cool in the water it will suck water back in and if you remove the engine from the water when it is running it is hard to capture what is left. For example engines without boilers like coil engines run just fine as they build an air/gas/steam bubble between the pipes as a substitute for a boiler.


In this case I deliberately let the engine suck in air, so if it had entered the boiler then the stalling of the engine is unavoidable. I don't know how hot the gas in my boiler is, but is has to be at least 300 deg. C. which means that if it accumulates it will continue to flash water into steam further down the tubes until there isn't enough space left in the tubes to keep the oscillation going.

There is not much water in both my high temperature engines. Measuring it is futile: if I leave it in the water to cool down the created vacuum is quite a violent reaction. If I take the engine out of the water and only one drop enters the very hot boiler the reaction is even more violent. If only I could control that power...

Sure I have some ideas, but they're all complicated and most likely will stop the engines cycle or at least will interfere with the engines cycle.
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daryl Canada


Junior Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 333

FLAGS
Location: Victoria B. C. Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Denying Dutchman wrote:
Daryl Canada wrote:

That does not seem to be the case. When measuring the water left in a good engine after running it is a very small amount, not enough to even partially fill the boiler. Measuring is tricky because if you let the engine cool in the water it will suck water back in and if you remove the engine from the water when it is running it is hard to capture what is left. For example engines without boilers like coil engines run just fine as they build an air/gas/steam bubble between the pipes as a substitute for a boiler.


In this case I deliberately let the engine suck in air, so if it had entered the boiler then the stalling of the engine is unavoidable. I don't know how hot the gas in my boiler is, but is has to be at least 300 deg. C. which means that if it accumulates it will continue to flash water into steam further down the tubes until there isn't enough space left in the tubes to keep the oscillation going.

There is not much water in both my high temperature engines. Measuring it is futile: if I leave it in the water to cool down the created vacuum is quite a violent reaction. If I take the engine out of the water and only one drop enters the very hot boiler the reaction is even more violent. If only I could control that power...

Sure I have some ideas, but they're all complicated and most likely will stop the engines cycle or at least will interfere with the engines cycle.


Before starting the engine we fill it with water. This is actually not necessary as all we need to do is fill the tubes plus a couple of drops in the boiler as that is the state of an engine when it is running well but lets assume we do fill it. As  the boiler is heated, steam forms, the engine starts and as the engine stabilizes almost all of the  water is expelled except that water piston shuttling back and  forth in the tubes. In small engines that stabilizing time is often not even noticed but in larger engines it is noticed very much and can take 1/2 hour or more for the engine to start to run at its best. As to why we don’t need or want water in the boiler is because water expands 1700 times as it turns to steam so it only takes a bit of water vapour to continue the pressure/expansion and condensation/contraction that drives the boat. If the boiler refilled on every pulse it would take a long time and a lot of heat to make steam again.

Where you say “which means that if it accumulates it will continue to flash water into steam further down the tubes until there isn't enough space left in the tubes to keep the oscillation going. “ this is why the condensation part of the cycle is so important and so often the problem when an engine runs poorly.  What you describe we call burn out and is the reason that many engines stop running.

I’m not good at writing explanations but maybe this helps.

Daryl.
_________________
GOT A QUESTION?   Answer...$1.00.        
Answers requiring thought...$2.00.  
Correct answers...$5.00.  
DUMB LOOKS ARE STILL FREE.
       My Youtube Channel          http://www.youtube.com/user/PuttPutt4video     
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a vintage pop-pop boat "sailor" you don't have to explain the concept of burn out to me. It's my greatest nightmare when sailing my boats.  

A boiler that refills itself every cycle is the holy grail of putt-putt engine building. Ok, you'll need a burner the size they use in flash steam boats, but the power is worth it.
Unfortunately that will never happen.
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daryl Canada


Junior Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 333

FLAGS
Location: Victoria B. C. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to build a flash steam putt putt once. The plan was to inject a drop of water into a hot boiler aiming at 10-20 per minute. It worked ,,,sort of. The first drop produced an excellent burst of power that started the engine which continued to run normally so I could never get to inject the next drop.

As moving parts were necessary for the injection it was no longer a putt putt engine so I did not go further.

Back to the drawing board.  
_________________
GOT A QUESTION?   Answer...$1.00.        
Answers requiring thought...$2.00.  
Correct answers...$5.00.  
DUMB LOOKS ARE STILL FREE.
       My Youtube Channel          http://www.youtube.com/user/PuttPutt4video     
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl Canada wrote:

As moving parts were necessary for the injection it was no longer a putt putt engine so I did not go further.


A diaphragm type engine technically has a moving part. Lot's can be done with it.
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic83706-0-0-asc-.php

To me putt-putt engines are oscillating water "piston" engines, no matter if they have moving parts or not. They must however be able to operate without external powered devices.
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daryl Canada


Junior Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 333

FLAGS
Location: Victoria B. C. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Denying Dutchman wrote:
Daryl Canada wrote:

As moving parts were necessary for the injection it was no longer a putt putt engine so I did not go further.


A diaphragm type engine technically has a moving part. Lot's can be done with it.
http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopic83706-0-0-asc-.php

To me putt-putt engines are oscillating water "piston" engines, no matter if they have moving parts or not. They must however be able to operate without external powered devices.


Well yes I used that idea myself with my Put Putt Goose but there is a distinction I think. The moving diaphragm is not a cause for the engine to run. It does in fact create a reduction of power and the engine will run better if the diaphragm is removed or fixed . Like a cigarette package fixed to contact the spokes of a bicycle wheel it makes an interesting sound but is not an aid to how the bike runs.

How do you feel about adding valves that have the potential to increase performance or as I have done turn the engine into a pump?

Cheers,  Daryl
_________________
GOT A QUESTION?   Answer...$1.00.        
Answers requiring thought...$2.00.  
Correct answers...$5.00.  
DUMB LOOKS ARE STILL FREE.
       My Youtube Channel          http://www.youtube.com/user/PuttPutt4video     
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stoker


Honorary Life Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 11210

FLAGS
Location: Eastern Sierra

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW ... what a fascinating discussion you gentlemen are having here. Thanks, I will most definitely continue to follow it!!!
_________________
Are we having fun yet?
Yeow!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl Canada wrote:

How do you feel about adding valves that have the potential to increase performance or as I have done turn the engine into a pump?

Cheers,  Daryl

I tried a valve once. I had a homemade valve made from clear plastic for a small pump and connected it to one of the pipes of an engine. The performance was horrible, because the valve itself started oscillating with almost no output.
In this case the diameter of the valve body was about 5 times as big as the diameter of the pipe, so that definitely didn't not help.

I think the pulse of the "water jet" is too short to make valves benificial. Unless you use spring loaded valves, but in that case part of the thrust is wasted opening the valve, without any benificial return.
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stoker wrote:
WOW ... what a fascinating discussion you gentlemen are having here. Thanks, I will most definitely continue to follow it!!!


Why not build an engine and join the discussion!  
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daryl Canada


Junior Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 333

FLAGS
Location: Victoria B. C. Canada

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Denying Dutchman wrote:
Daryl Canada wrote:

How do you feel about adding valves that have the potential to increase performance or as I have done turn the engine into a pump?

Cheers,  Daryl

I tried a valve once. I had a homemade valve made from clear plastic for a small pump and connected it to one of the pipes of an engine. The performance was horrible, because the valve itself started oscillating with almost no output.
In this case the diameter of the valve body was about 5 times as big as the diameter of the pipe, so that definitely didn't not help.

I think the pulse of the "water jet" is too short to make valves benificial. Unless you use spring loaded valves, but in that case part of the thrust is wasted opening the valve, without any benificial return.


Valve design is a challenge. The valves I used in the pump were one way ball type without springs installed in opposite directions in a two pipe engine. They were close to the correct pipe size, one coming from a coffee maker and one I found in automotive supplies I think from the W/W washer system. They worked surprisingly well and did not seem to affect the engine performance.

On paper valves were part of the water injection flash steam engine design. Mainly I did not pursue it because I did not consider it a true PP engine and it looked like a lot of work. The power potential is high though . When playing with single tube engines without boilers there were short periods when they ran with explosive force but it would not continue for more that 4 or 5 cycles. One tube actually blew itself out of the water and a good 12" away. As Jean-Yves pointed out heat control is more critical the smaller the boiler and that is a big problem. In some of his experiments he used electric heat with rheostats  to get the difficulty of heat management out of the equation.
_________________
GOT A QUESTION?   Answer...$1.00.        
Answers requiring thought...$2.00.  
Correct answers...$5.00.  
DUMB LOOKS ARE STILL FREE.
       My Youtube Channel          http://www.youtube.com/user/PuttPutt4video     
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Denying Dutchman


Steam Supreme Being


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 10924

FLAGS
Location: Assen, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as it's a self containing system with the same operating principle it's a valid putt-putt engine as far as I'm concerned. I would however name such an engine a valved putt-putt or something like that.

It's unlikely, but it could be that someone designs the optimal putt-putt engine which would mean that further experimentation is futile. The only way to overcome that problem is, in my opinion, to evolve the engine by any means to keep increasing the output.
And, as an added benefit: if putt-putt engines become more powerful, more people will find them interesting.
_________________
http://www.lively-arts.com/theatre/2002/0209/animal_farm.jpg
That was odd. We are all equal, but some...

My Youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/user/Lb34P
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum Forum Index -> Steam Launches and Boats All times are GMT
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 17, 18, 19, 20  Next
Page 18 of 20

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
smartBlue Style © 2002 Smartor
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
 

Welcome to The Unofficial Mamod & Other Steam Forum!
Welcome. We're a friendly place to share knowledge & chat about this great hobby. Since our July 06 startup, we have grown to over 2500 members, who have posted over 1 1/4 million posts. We can answer most toy steam questions, basic or complex. Our multi-national members enjoy sharing photos & videos of engines by Mamod, Wilesco, Jensen, Bowman, SEL, Doll, Bing, Scorpion, Renown & more. All collectors are welcome & if you are just starting out in the hobby, we can suggest some ideal engines. Our forum is ad free & costs nothing to be a member.
Press the 'Join' button at the top of the page, to be part of the largest toy steam forum on the internet.
For membership or joining issues email Mooseman: o.marcenaro@gmail.com
Engine of the Month April
EOTM
Trevstoybox's
"The Whim"
Click picture to enlarge