The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum
The Original Toy Steam Forum
Established 2006
The biggest, most popular global steam forum around! Accept NO imitations!
We have a growing community of regular posting members who chat about all aspects of toy and model steam.
 
FAQ :: Search :: Memberlist :: Usergroups :: Join! (free)
Profile :: Log in to check your private messages :: Log in



Chat Safe Rules

Internally Gas Fired Mamod update
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 11, 12, 13
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum Forum Index -> Locomotives and Railways
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mikewakefielduk


Forum Newbie


Joined: 23 Apr 2015
Posts: 98

FLAGS

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think I'll be an "early adopter" this time, especially at the rumoured price, much as I'd like to support the company.


The price of other manufacturer's locos is climbing considerably. I was looking at the TrackShack site (usually one of the cheaper dealers) recently and noticed a manual Ragleth was listed at £850. When I bought my Ragleth new in 2011 it cost me less than £500 from Martin's Models, including postage, that's a 70% increase in less than 6 years during which time UK inflation has been no more than 2% per year. You can't tell me that  increase is wholly because of the drop in the value of the pound.

No wonder quite tatty 2nd hand Caradocs, Edrigs and the like are going on ebay for £600 and more.

At this rate £640 for a Stirling is still going to be easily the cheapest new internally gas fired loco on the market by a long way.


Last edited by mikewakefielduk on Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Douglas


Steam Legend!!


Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 3433

FLAGS
Location: West Midlands, UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a way I see where MikeWakefield is coming from, but the question is - and this is going to require grandpa or someone young enough at the early 1980s - did the first ever RH Lady Annes and Victorias cause problems?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
mikewakefielduk


Forum Newbie


Joined: 23 Apr 2015
Posts: 98

FLAGS

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about Roundhouse (never able to afford them back then) but the early Accucraft locos certainly did have issues, for example with undersized cylinders on a couple of models. As this was a design rather than a manufacturing fault you could obtain and retrofit the improved larger cylinders but you had to buy them yourself.

There is a difference between design changes (because something could be improved, like the round holes in the heat shield mentioned previously) and manufacturing faults. The latter are always fixed. For example I twice have sent my Telford back to Mamod for fixing, once for a problem with the cylinders and once for a paintwork issue. In both cases the loco was returned to me by carrier within a short time.

Interestingly both the cylinders and paintwork are subcontracted out so are not under Mamod's direct control. I understand that the company is buying new machinery so more of their components can be made in house, allowing them to keep a better eye on quality control, make changes faster and keep costs under control.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SLR


Junior Member


Joined: 11 Jul 2014
Posts: 245

FLAGS

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikewakefielduk wrote:
Quote:
You mean sell a prototype as a finished product, and rely on their customers to carry out the development work


I think that is a little unfair as all manufacturers do it to a greater or lesser extent. Just look at the way the Roundhouse Lady Anne changed over the years (0-4-0 to 0-6-0, meths fired to gas fired, etc). Its just that the other model loco manufacturers were developing a totally new design of model some years ago, so all they do now is to use basically the same chassis/boiler/burner/valve gear and vary the body and cab design. Consider the number of Roundhouse locos that have identical valve gear and one of two variations in boiler.


I was, of course, referring to the Telford; Mamod first introduced an externally-fired piston valve engine back in 2004. They've had more than enough time to get things right.

It's interesting that you mention the Lady Anne; this was originally an externally fired 0-4-0 as well. Perhaps someone at Mamod should have had a look at one to see how things were done... It seems to me that they are often intent on re-inventing the wheel, as it were.

Roundhouse have been quite clever with their semi-modular design and parts sharing; this is something car manufacturers do to reduce development costs; you mentioned the Fiat 500 - it shares it's platform with the Ford KA of the same period, and both were built in Poland.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikewakefielduk


Forum Newbie


Joined: 23 Apr 2015
Posts: 98

FLAGS

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was, of course, referring to the Telford; Mamod first introduced an externally-fired piston valve engine back in 2004. They've had more than enough time to get things right.

Well yes, but Mamod had certainly been making improvements in the meantime, like fitting redesigned cylinders to the William 11, a far better shape of heat shield to stop the decals getting burnt, etc. However, up until they began work on the Telford I don't think they realised that some of their components, although seeming to work fine on smaller and lighter locos, actually had issues. For example the burner requiring the venturi to be removed to make it far more efficient.

If only they hadn't announced the Telford when they did in 2012 and instead waited until 2015 when it was a totally different beast (by then having new cylinders, new burner, new lubricator and new body).

Which is why I don't think they'll be rushing the Stirling out until its really ready, so I doubt whether they'll be taking orders for it at the Peterborough Show in early April.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SLR


Junior Member


Joined: 11 Jul 2014
Posts: 245

FLAGS

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a William as well... there are so many issues with that engine I don't know where to start! It's been sat on my bench for over a year now, while I try to make up my mind what to do with it.

I had to drill out the burner venturi on my MkII oscillator, as it always seemed to be short of steam, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, oil contaminating the burner was an issue on that engine, too. I don't understand why it took so long to release the Telford, which in the end was still riddled with problems that were apparent on their earlier products.

And you are right; if they want to get into the potentially lucrative garden railway market, the Stirling needs to be good. In fact it needs to be much better than anything they've made before.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Douglas


Steam Legend!!


Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 3433

FLAGS
Location: West Midlands, UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE Loco prices - true re new Accy 040s. I've seen £850 for them.

RH Basics are now £628. But that accounts for proper paintwork, proper RH Cylinders as you'd find on any more expensive Classics engine [and as a result, can pull a house down] and a simple setup which allows for easy home maintenance. Bargain that, outside of a Janet.

RE Secondhand locos and £600+ - I reckon my Caradoc GT would call in at least £710.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
CCairns


Steam Legend!!


Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 2676

FLAGS
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikewakefielduk wrote:
like fitting redesigned cylinders to the William 11

But they did not work! Despite drilling out the burner's venturi, I have never got my erratic William II to run properly, and it has been abandoned in the dark corner of a cupboard. I've heard from others who had similar problems trying to run their William II's which were eventually sold on.

It took some 6 years before I finally managed to get my William to run properly at slow speeds - I think it took that long for the one piece piston & piston rod (no 'O' rings) and cylinder bore to bed in to a workable tolerance.
mikewakefielduk wrote:
a far better shape of heat shield to stop the decals getting burnt

But not very effective. The Diamond Jubilee Saddle Tank suffered burnt decals in the Garden Rail review (including the replacement set that were sent out), and as already discussed in my Unstable Gas Burner subject we have seen two singed Thomas Telfords. At least we got Mamod to no longer fit those decals during manufacture.
SLR wrote:
if they want to get into the potentially lucrative garden railway market

That was what was said of the Thomas Telford previously, and we know how that has worked out. Interestingly there has never been a review of the piston valve Thomas Telford in Garden Rail - wonder why? (Yes I am aware that Tag Gorton was given a review Thomas Telford but it is not his intention to produce a review, rather he has been building some rolling stock to go specially with that TT, and the article [if it ever appears] is another makeover one).

Clearly Mamod still have this stigma hanging over them by many in the Garden Railway community. I demonstrated my oscillating Thomas Telford at Llanfair C & Elsecar in 2015, but my Ragleth Mark I, modified Regner Vincent & rake of IP Eng industrial rolling stock generated more response/questions from visitors to the layout. At Peterborough 2016 I watched people either just walking past the Mamod stand, and those that did ask "What is that?" (referring to the internally fired loco prototype) did not seem to hang around to take a closer look - admittedly my visit to the Mamod stand was also somewhat short as our Group was one of the exhibitors, and it was also at the beginning of the show.

Chris Cairns
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CCairns


Steam Legend!!


Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 2676

FLAGS
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's something amiss with Accucraft UK pricing.

Look at their latest model to ship - SLR No.14. Those models which were air shipped to Track Shack & AnythingNarrowGauge were selling for £1540 (manual). However the rest which came via the high seas are being sold for £1800/£1710. So you now have the anomaly of a black R/C SLR No.14 being sold for £1790 (as it was air shipped - 1st delivery), and a black manual SLR No.14 selling for £1710 (shipped by sea - 2nd delivery).

These price hikes have certainly raised the bar for 2nd hand models. As well as the higher prices being commanded on eBay offerings now, there is some profiteering going on by some on a certain Facebook Garden Railway Trading Group!

As there are some who are happy to pay these higher prices, it is a 'Win Win' market at present.

Chris Cairns
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikewakefielduk


Forum Newbie


Joined: 23 Apr 2015
Posts: 98

FLAGS

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is a 'Win Win' market at present

Unfortunately for those of us without limitless depths to our pockets, that is very true. I'm going to be watching carefully how much the new Regner Henry vertical boiler loco is going to cost, especially as the body is made mainly from laser cut wood and not Regner's previous cast brass.

It reminds me very much of the antique clock business some 10 years ago, when grandfather clocks were selling for not less than £2500 and the older brass dial ones for many thousands more. Greedy dealers were cashing in selling clocks bodged together from bits and pieces. Then the market collapsed and now you can get a fully working totally original  grandfather clock, dating from around 1760, for around £250.

Which of course has stopped people having their antique clocks repaired as it costs more for the work than the clock is now worth, so clock repairers themselves have virtually disappeared. As have the suppliers of spare parts and clock restoration apprenticeships.

So when I'm told "Oh yes, but what goes around, comes around and the prices will recover in a few more years" I ask "and who's going to repair these clocks?" as the skills to do so have gone.

It will be very interesting to see what happens to the price of locos in the future, especially when fewer and fewer people remain alive who can remember full size steam locos on our railway network.

Rant over. In the meantime ForestClassics still has Williams for sale for a staggering £430. http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/Mamod%20loco.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CCairns


Steam Legend!!


Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 2676

FLAGS
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikewakefielduk wrote:
In the meantime ForestClassics still has Williams for sale for a staggering £430. http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/Mamod%20loco.htm

No longer available from there. We have previously discussed that Forest Classics needs to purge their badly out of date Mamod Trains web page.

If you use the Add to Cart buttons, the only locomotive they still have in stock is the Brunel. All the other locomotives & train sets are unavailable.

Chris Cairns


Last edited by CCairns on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CCairns


Steam Legend!!


Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 2676

FLAGS
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikewakefielduk wrote:
how much the new Regner Henry vertical boiler loco is going to cost

Regner Henri is listed for €680 on Regner's website, and $750 on The Train Department's website.

Does not appear on the Garden Railways, Glendale Junction or Atelier Vaporiste websites (yet).

Chris Cairns
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikewakefielduk


Forum Newbie


Joined: 23 Apr 2015
Posts: 98

FLAGS

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Regner Henri is listed for €680 on Regner's website, and $750 on The Train Department's website.

That's nearly the same price (around £600) as the Otto was selling for, which had all metal construction. Admittedly the metal sides made a total pain to operate as you couldn't get at the controls properly or empty the displacement lubricator.

Quote:
No longer available from there. We have previously discussed that Forest Classics needs to purge their badly out of date Mamod Trains web page.

I didn't explain myself very well, it wasn't the availability I was focused on. What I was trying to say is here we have a trader asking £430 and at the top of the ad saying "for the same price as the original William!" which of course is a nonsense as the original William was never priced at £430. Even if the loco is no longer available its a subtle way of getting potential purchasers used to the idea of rising prices. They've done the same for the (non available) Mk11, asking a price of £329 which is higher than £320 for the current Mk111 on Mamod's website.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Unofficial Mamod and Other Steam Forum Forum Index -> Locomotives and Railways All times are GMT
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 11, 12, 13
Page 13 of 13

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
smartBlue Style © 2002 Smartor
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
 

Welcome to The Unofficial Mamod & Other Steam Forum!
Welcome. We're a friendly place to share knowledge & chat about this great hobby. Since our July 06 startup, we have grown to over 2500 members, who have posted over 1 1/4 million posts. We can answer most toy steam questions, basic or complex. Our multi-national members enjoy sharing photos & videos of engines by Mamod, Wilesco, Jensen, Bowman, SEL, Doll, Bing, Scorpion, Renown & more. All collectors are welcome & if you are just starting out in the hobby, we can suggest some ideal engines. Our forum is ad free & costs nothing to be a member.
Press the 'Join' button at the top of the page, to be part of the largest toy steam forum on the internet.
For membership or joining issues email Sandman: sandmansmail665@gmail.com
Engine of the Month February
EOTM
John Besley's Mamod/Wilesco rebuild
"Yer Tiz", 2013-2016
Click picture to enlarge