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Mss durability
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Vicente


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:37 am    Post subject: Mss durability Reply with quote

Perhaps someone who has used his locomotive for a long time can tell how many runs can endure a not overheated MSS standard boiler . And well-lubricated standard cylinders

I'm going to use only butane.30-70 butane propane is too hot. I have to graduate it to the minimum. Otherwise the gaskets will burn . I've got a dead-leg lubricator. But I think I'm going to install an additional displacement lubricator. The cylinders are expensive


Last edited by Vicente on Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Douglas


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're adding a gas burner to a standard Mamod/MSS soft-soldered boiler, you have to be careful. They're more delicate than a copper boiler, which is why a meths burner, with their gentler heat, is better for the standard boilers.
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Vicente


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes but it smells very bad And I can only use it when I am alone. As my dear bowman

The welds have not been damaged. And I'm good at soldering. But the brass can degrade. That's why I'm going to try butane only. (Not propane-butane), I think it's less calorific (Really calorific power is similar. But theoretically. Butane has less pressure and comes out more slowlyl
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Dr. Rog


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know the answer but if you follow your plan and limit the heat it should last year's.

I have some Wilescos that where run on gas for many years and I have not noticed deterioration of the brass. I will check them out though.
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Vicente


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They say the brass loses its zinc and becomes porous. But it must be high temperature (Zinc melts at 419 degrees Celsius) Tin with a little silver. It melts at about 220 degrees Celsius. I suppose if the welds the steam tube. (That's where MSS boilers are more heated). Do not melt. Brass does not suffer
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ace


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have one or two Mamod locos (older MSS) with standard boilers. You will find that the standard boiler will not take much in the way of use with a gas burner. There is little to no tolerance to getting anything wrong. One slight overheat through lack of water or one false move with the gas tap and the soft solder joints will let go.

I have successfully silver soldered several standard boilers to work with gas burners.

It is not that the zinc melts, the water reacts with the brass and eventually takes the zinc away. Commonly known as Dezincification, or selective leaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_leaching
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Vicente


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the explanation


I know you have one or two mamods. I have seen them on youtube



Then, I spend 78 pounds on a gas burner for nothing. Or I'll have to spend 145 pounds on a Roy's boiler. (With regulator and valves)
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CCairns


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is lots of discussion regarding dezincification on these Forums including a test done by one member using lots of different water, etc. Put this text into a Google search for more info - dezincification site:http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/

It seems to mainly affect boilers from the 1970s, although there has been at least one case from the current Mamod, and it has even affected a boiler that has never had water in it. Interestingly no-one has posted dezincification in a Mamod SL/MSS boiler - so far!

With regards alternate firing a Mamod SL/MSS boiler there are two conditions to consider.

1. The Mamod SL boilers were constructed using solder paste on the various components and passing the complete assembly through a furnace. As far as is known that is what MSS are still doing.

Thus these boilers are soft soldered and in many cases there is little solder found when the fittings start to leak. In my experience the weakest point of the boiler is the bottom fitting (diagram from the late Peter Longfils).



I've had a leak develop here on a new MSS Saddle Tank boiler just after I fitted a 3 wick meths burner, despite keeping a good water level. So I strengthen this joint using silver bearing plumbers soft solder, which has a higher melting point. On that MSS Saddle Tank I also had a small leak from the recessed front plate (inside the smoke box), which was only found after I removed the boiler to fix the bottom leak as above.

2. Plastic sight glass. Effectively the secondary safety valve on a Mamod SL/MSS boiler. The plastic is supposed to melt at a higher temperature than the solid fuel can achieve, but by introducing a meths or gas burner you effectively increase the temperature towards that threshold. On my MSS Saddle Tank loco above the plastic sight glass melted shortly after I fitted a meths burner, again despite keeping good water levels. I've also had the thicker plastic sight glass that the current Mamod use melt as well on gas fired boilers, a Mark I locomotive & a TE1A with the Mamod gas burner scuttle conversion.

One problem with a gas burner on the Mamod SL/MSS loco is it is difficult to see it operating when it is fitted in the chassis, so it is easy to have it turned up too high (you have already posted that you burnt the gasket ['O' ring?] on your MSS steam dome). So it is wise to put a mark/line on the gas regulator valve (so you can tell how far it is open), and by carefully looking down inside the combustion chamber at an angle you should be able to see the burner's glow.

Taking the above into consideration, I found it almost impossible to set up the gas jet position for a Cheddar Models/PPS Steam/Bix Burner once the burner is fitted into the loco, so ended up doing this with the burner removed & marking the jet holder with the appropriate position before fitting it to the loco.

Personally I will not use a gas burner on a standard Mamod SL/MSS boiler,  but I'm sure others on these Forums will post they have had no problems. Strengthen up that boiler bottom fitting & keep a replacement sight glass & seal in your toolbox.

Chris Cairns
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ace


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CCairns wrote:
Interestingly no-one has posted dezincification in a Mamod SL/MSS boiler - so far!


I think you may have missed my Mamod SL4 'Princess of Wales' restoration.


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Vicente


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the welding melts . not much problem. I will weld with my tin with 3% silver. I weld him with a small kitchen torch.
I think it melts at a little more temperature than pure tin. The welds come out pretty .very clean and abundant. I solder the boiler carefully. Filled with water to prevent overheating. An MSS boiler costs 35 pounds. But spoiling a Bowman boiler is a tragedy.
Neither is it necessary for the boilers to be eternal. I will buy more boilers and cylinders. If I do not have time to use it. I suppose my nephew will use it. Of four years now (I'm going to give you a TE1 A from Ebay to transmit the disease of the steam
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ace


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicente wrote:
If the welding melts . not much problem. I will weld with my tin with 3% silver. I weld him with a small kitchen torch.
I think it melts at a little more temperature than pure tin. The welds come out pretty .very clean and abundant. I solder the boiler carefully. Filled with water to prevent overheating. An MSS boiler costs 35 pounds. But spoiling a Bowman boiler is a tragedy.
Neither is it necessary for the boilers to be eternal. I will buy more boilers and cylinders. If I do not have time to use it. I suppose my nephew will use it. Of four years now (I'm going to give you a TE1 A from Ebay to transmit the disease of the steam


You will be surprised how much heat you will need. A decent sized blow torch will do the job, don't even try a small kitchen sized unit. You won't be able to solder in the loco either for burning the paint or with any water inside. Take it out of the loco, remove all fittings and go from there. Water would turn the boiler into a bomb and not allow it to heat up enough to even soft solder.

For the matter of safety, just go for the rwm boiler. By the time you replace the boiler and cylinders for standard replacements, you are well on the way to a decent copper unit from Roy.
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Vicente


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not do hard welding. Only tin with 3% silver.

The kitchen torch works very well for soft weld. It is not a bomb. If there is pressure, it comes out through the safety valve. And by the steam pipe. I try to weld very fast to spoil little. I put a lot of flux and in a few seconds the welding runs very well. Whenever it is possible to charge the flame more in the pipe and less in the boiler.

If I can weld with the boiler filled with half of water. very good . Of course the water is on the opposite side of the weld


Yes .It has a color different in the area of the weld. I'm not going to weld with silver. Too much temperature. . I think it's worse for the boiler to have a weld with silver than ten with tin .No problem . The old steam locomotives had to be mended to keep them working.
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ace


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you actually tried this? You won't get the heat into the metal. If your solder works with water in the boiler then the solder will melt with a burner underneath. Do it properly and once.

Take the boiler out, clean off all the paint and dirt, remove all fittings and solder well. You cannot just 'solder quickly' you need a good amount of heat on the boiler to get it done properly. You wouldn't want water in it with the safety valve blowing off all the time, it will put your blow torch out or worse still burn your fingers.

For the sake of safety please do not do it the way you intend.
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ace


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get the boiler to this stage before trying to solder. The paint and dirty contaminants will affect the solder. I have soldered many boilers with great success, please take my advice.



The finished article. Hasn't let me down yet.


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pauly


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can vouch for Aces methods and the results they produce, do it right and do it once.
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